Making a non-super handle
 

I know that a regular beetle probably cannot handle as well as a fully tuned out super beetle, but I can get it pretty darn close right?

What all would I have to do?
Is it possible to make a regular beetle handle on the par as say a more modern car?

I have a 1970.

Also, stupid stupid question, can you drift a beetle?

Fundamentally, the BJ/LP trailing arm design is miles behind the Macpherson strut design and it is doubtful whether you could get close to the same performance in any empirically assessable way.

For a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/Modify-Volkswa.../dp/1903706998 and
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/re...s/handling.htm

Whether you can get a beetle to handle as well as a modern car is also doubtful, irrespective of whether it is a BJ/LP or strut front suspension especially as the design is 40 years old at best, 80 years old at worst. Your '70 beetle will be a swing axle rear that is definitely an 80 year old design that no modern manufacturer would consider. Even the IRS rear is old hat that having been superseded by multi links that do not toe-out in roll for example. Porsche have tamed the wayward 911 IRS rear with multilinks.

All you can do is make the car handle the best it can within the bounds of its ancient design. Its big advantage is that the light weight coupled with the potent power that can be extracted keep it a plausable contender.

You could drift any car with the right modifications. Check out 'You tube' for all the videos.

Its an IRS pan.
I was thinking that I might have to invest in a Mendeola suspension if I really want to make this thing handle.

Now come to think of it my best bet is to make the thing a GL street fun car not super fast and call it a day, get my hands on a 130X (2 or 3) and go to town on that.

you can make the bj/irs into quite a good handeling car. well a predictable one any way. 2 inch drop all round and adjustable anti roll bars at both end, some good shocks [my choice would be bilstiens] make sure all the bushes and beam bearings are new. then get a good 4 wheel alignment done and experemnet with the settings. The biggest singlle improvement will be some decent rubber on not to wide wheels, i wouldn't go above a 7" wide rim and even thats prob to wide for the front. I see it all the time on the tracks that folk spend thosands on trick suspension then bolt on a set of worn missmatched tyres and wonder why the car wont do what they want. Even a modern 911 will be bad with the wrong tyres.

Yeah I know how important wheels and tires are.
My VW is taking a... modern Japanese esque route. I would like it to handle and put a decent zippy little engine it, more for spirited daily driving then anything else.

I'm glad you made that point. I had 6½'s front and back on my 1302. I liked it a lot but, honestly, I have no idea what would be ideal for a Super or a standard. All I knew was whether I was having a boatload of fun or not. Most of the time was YES.

I'm guessing engine choice and brake/suspension set-up plays an important role, too.

Do you have a general guideline with which one should follow?

A question on the side;

side-loads on a standard beetle should transfer through the center torsion bar lock piece to the front beam itself. Has anyone seen any failures on these parts? When one start putting on sticky wide tires and use the car much harder than ever intended it looks fragile (but from experience it is not though)

redhot, its not an issue, ive raced both k&l and b/j beams in many disciplines from grass track to rallycross, and circuit racing, all had various means of adjustment, none have ever failed, these days i do preload the arms against side loads with the correct bushes.
they were of course proven by military use in w/w 2 with the kubel and schwimmer, long before we got to lower them with swayaways....

The reason for asking is some debate as to how good the generic no-name Puma beams are. The original beam has a depression in the beam itself, gripping into the centre-piece. The Pumas does not, as far as I have seen, this. Only thing then holding this is the shear force from toothed-plate and if that fails the bolt itself shearing against the beam.


Would be nice to see how you made the preload bushes and installation.

redhot, i see what you mean, and a very good point! ive never even noticed how the anchor is fixated in the generic puma types, and I've fitted enough of them, but again ive not come across a problem, and my own beams have swayaways by choice. i should have some of these centre sections in the 'useful scrap bin'... time to investigate further...

This standard beetle seems to have no issues with handling

http://www.boxergasse.com/assets/images/IMGP0047.JPG http://www.boxergasse.com/assets/ima...Bild_004_1.jpg

http://www.boxergasse.com/html/stefa...tschinger.html

The on board video is pretty amazing as well, indicating that the base BJ suspension is well suited to the task at hand.

Once I get my car back on the road (spring 2011), I'll be able to log G's with my LMA3 and post some data.

Sandeep

Hi Sandeep, Expensive kit there! Kevlar wings and all, i don't see an ARB on it, maybe its in mid build, its also possible to build a T/B beam so stiff on the leaves it may not need one, that's if it even has leaves of course, looks like the end housing of a R&P projecting in by the coil over, complete with tender springs. Nice to have all this kit, but open regulations allowing it in the kafer cup in the first place meant it was unsustainable, most competitors where VW traders, and even they blanched at the expense, amateurs could not compete, and of course it led to the demise of the series. but i digress, it would be nice to see some more technical pics anytime soon!!:)

Hi

Some of the issues facing BJ cars compared to strut cars is the lack of steering lock and that the front track on BJ cars is very narrow.

For predictable handling you need a wider front track than than rear track otherwise the car handles like a trike (exaggerating here) and wants to fall over in the front.

I'll explain, imagine a trike with the single wheel leading, they are very unstable when turning and fall over very easily, watch Mr Bean episodes with the 3 wheel car. Now reverse the trike with the 2 wheels leading and the 1 wheel trailing and you get much more stable turning.

Its best to do what you can with you have with advice offered on this forum.

Steve

Am I imagining things? In that picture, it appears that there is a 'spacer' of sorts on the lower arm, but not the upper. Would this thicker 'spacer' allow greater negative camber because it changes the vertical axis of the spindle assembly? If so, that was sneaky.

Steve, your on the ball there, i have 1" wider beam on the circuits now, but as you noticed, s/lock at the limit is governed by the wheel hitting the torsion arm, work continues within the regulations I'm bound with, but im pleased at results so far, testing will resume as soon as the weather lifts new year.
dorigtt, i think the 'spacer' on the lower tube is a plastic bearing as oposed to the stock grease seal on the top one.

exactly ;)

Where do you find a plastic bearing like that?

Did you re-dimple the torsion springs or run through rods?

Swayaway do similar ones, just a different material, i run torsion bars, but they are highly modified and fully adjustable for corner weighting.

I think you are correct as further investigation on the site reveals what looks to be through bars / bolts replacing the front torsion leafs. I can't post the pic but the information is there.

I wonder how the track handling would compare to an A-Arm suspension ... surely the BJ set up with those lower spacers would handle better than a stock beam. You would also be able to fine tune the camber with that set up. Stefan Naumann's car on the site also looks to be using this modification.

I'll have to talk to Lanner about ths .. looks like a simple mod.

I wonder if anyone has any camber / castor curves for the stock BJ suspension :thinking:

Sandeep

Interesting topic indeed. I also have standard beetle, which will have IRS with 944 aluarms, and front maybe red9design coilovers with same rack and pinion kit as the german racer on the link.

He seems to have wery wide wheels, 10x17 at rear and front 8x17. I was thinking to get 7 + 9 x 17 cup wheels, too wide perhaps?

My boxster brake kit will ad offset about 5-6mm at the front.


I have been thinking a lot these suspension modifications, because my sister's husband from scotland has been bragging that how quick his basic/classic 1600cc caterham is.

Feeling really good about the BJ front suspension possibilities now. Only way to get the data is to get the car on the road and test it :D

Seems like Armin Klein likes the BJ front suspension too.

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/5607224/...e_Leipzig_2008

Sandeep

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...2.jpg~original Here is my beamer baiter on a qualifying lap. My mental data logger says i pull something over 1G on control road tyres, its harder to add lock on this l/h turn as my arm is too heavy with G!:lmao: . this season i am moving up to race tyres with updates to the setup. here you can see the main weakness of the t/b front suspension with no camber recovery in roll, the rear roll is soft here to keep away from excessive over steer, but is now addressed for this season with softer t/bars and stiffer ARB... i hope;)... best regards, Spanners.

Now that's a great picture !

Do you have some links / specs on your car available ?

Sandeep

Thanks Sandeep,:) i WILL get my albums sorted into order and post up a link to it, the car is constantly changing and will always have a development plan. its nothing special spec' wise, and no show car, its raced hard, and has had many fights, even a 1/2 roll, and its still alive!
My mantra with this car is to keep it as original VW as possible, apart from complying with various rules, this makes for quick and easy repairs, one BIG advantage of a beam if you do shunt it, all at affordable £££.. and it annoys the hell out of Porsche drivers:angry:. briefly, as in the pic taken in 2006, it had a T1 1835 with about 145 hp, 421 exhaust, 10.8 cr, dry sump, and , wait for it, a Scat CAST crank,... T1 IRS box with all the tricks but a free diff, 100 mm cv's.
the beam uses split torsion bars and is 1" wider than stock, adjusts for corner weighting, 22mm front ARB, 6 pot Tarox front brakes, VERY light, stock bug calipers on the rear, car weighs 710kg wet in aircooled spec.
Its put on some weight now, as the biggest change for this season is the motor, it now has a 2.5 ltr OKRASA wasser boxer, just waiting for a break in the weather really, to get it out for testing..... Best regards, spanners.

Spanners, would love to see the motor :D

Has anyone spent any time perusing these 5 pages?

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewto...?f=51&t=127619

2.5 wasser
 

Hi mate, i'll get some pics up shortly, quickly, its a detuned turbo rallycross motor i had back in the mid '80's, the '90' recession got to me, and i went off for 10 years doing beetle cup and karting:D. so its on interim carbs for a bit to shake down and set up the chassis, before the injection etc goes back on, maybe the turbo, not sure, ive done that:cool:....
regards spanners...

Wow :eek: That was a good read. Some of it was over my head but it applied to my standard wannabe project and my 181 wannabe project. Good stuff. Thanks!

Also a fan of the link. Top work

What's the opinion about coilovers at the front? Remmele sells them at 980 euros per set and red9design sells them about 400£.

Red9design has two sets for sale, one with 0-2" drop and one with 2-4" drop.
I was thinking to get the later set, maybe.

Hello, Kevin "Coolrydes" Zagar here.
If you guys want more info one making a type one handle take a look at this forum http://www.germanlook.net/forums/sho...light=mendeola and or ask my questions.... PS our kits are NOT very expensive.

I did some reading at boxergasse forum and found this topic, 1200 chassis vs 02/03 chassis:


http://boxergasse.forumieren.de/t53-...-1200-vs-02-03.

I translated most interesting answer:

I had the opportunity recently to go after work when driving at Hockenheim, the pink 1200 by Stefan. Basically, driving the car is not bad. However, I discovered that the steering forces to be many times higher than me on my 03er. My VW Beetle, you can easily drive around the course with the 1200 you have to work like a hard worker. Similarly, there are serious differences in the implementation of the steering commands my 03er runs spontaneously and accurately, the short front end a bit cumbersome and imprecise. For me personally, just a long front end comes as a race car in question. Did the whole Vorderachsgeschichte with my yellow Beetle indeed already been through. The axis is simply too unstable to support levers bend tried cornering, etc. Have everything possible supporting lever mounted in bronze, no more front torsion bars, Lenkhenbel changed you will never go there when driving a long front end.

I did some reading at boxergasse forum and found this topic, 1200 chassis vs 02/03 chassis:


http://boxergasse.forumieren.de/t53-...-1200-vs-02-03.

I translated most interesting answer:

I had the opportunity recently to go after work when driving at Hockenheim, the pink 1200 by Stefan. Basically, driving the car is not bad. However, I discovered that the steering forces to be many times higher than me on my 03er. My VW Beetle, you can easily drive around the course with the 1200 you have to work like a hard worker. Similarly, there are serious differences in the implementation of the steering commands my 03er runs spontaneously and accurately, the short front end a bit cumbersome and imprecise. For me personally, just a long front end comes as a race car in question. Did the whole Vorderachsgeschichte with my yellow Beetle indeed already been through. The axis is simply too unstable to support levers bend tried cornering, etc. Have everything possible supporting lever mounted in bronze, no more front torsion bars, Lenkhenbel changed you will never go there when driving a long front end.

Then the rest of the car is set up Incorrectly, possibly rear steering, its not because its a b/j beam. I had a top sports car racer, complete with double wish bone front suspension and 9" slicks of course, come over to my pitch to slap hands with me after a good race long fight to the flag last weekend, respect he said, but i do hate that car of yours:angry:
says it all realy, thats what i want to hear, thats when you know your doing something right, even better when they stump up the protest fee and lose it, it must be because Beetles are seen as slow, especially as it still has its torsion beam:).

Hi Spanners.
I watched that race, it was great, you were really close, it certainly showed how your set up was heads above the other bugs racing, experience pays off.
look forward to seeing it out again soon showing up the others.
cheers.
Dan.

Hi Dan, glad you enjoyed it, and lots more to come from it, i was nursing a cracked disc and a very long brake pedal, so a bit of a sweat! the handling is where i want it, and good enough to allow me to get on with other things for now, ive cured the wheel lifting and spinning up the inside tyre , the slipper diff money ive saved is going towards better tyres, i need slicks to move forward, the whole grid is on 9", many are on 11"s, so i'm doing o.k on my treads, the OKRASA is going back in as we speak for another 40 bhp over the SPARE engine ive been using;) so that cant hurt things:lmao: good to see people turning out, keep up the good work on yours, even if its a fat chick:lmao: we need more 02/03s to hold up the pack while my axle beam gets going at the front:p
Somebody sent this you tube vid to me, i MAY just get a test in on the OKRASA before the weather turns, ill post up if so, cheers...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KclyY...eature=related

Hi Spanners.
Thanks for the link, let us know the next time your at Lydden I will pop over as its 10 mins away, you mentioned getting slicks, you have seen my thread (fat chick) im thinking of changing my wheel combo from 7x15 fr - 9x15 rear with flared wings to my 6x14 revolutions ive had for many years fitted with 185/60x14 yoko 032R s do you think the car will handle better ?also with my stock wings, I would value your opinion.
Cheers.
Dan.

Dan, its hard to say if it would handle any better, in racing we are purely led by the watch, so its easy, i think i would keep what you have for now at least, as its a known quantity.:)

Hi Spanners.
OK, cheers for that, speak soon.

Spanners......

I'd be grateful if you could post a detailed spec of your suspension set-up. I'd did a quick search but didn't see this info elsewhere. Thanks.