An $8,000 Question
 

I received some spirited responses with regards to the starter engine thread. Let's try this hypothetical since one point of divergence was cost.

Let's say I have $8,000 budgeted. This must be spent on a completed engine including exhaust and including labor. This assumes no do-it-yourself action on my part. (It also assumes US-dollars and the American method of using commas to separate the thousands column from the hundreds.)

This budget does not include the installation or the transmission, however. Those are separate issues that I am theoretically okay with.

My stock engine gives me max torque at low RPM's and has a nice flat torque curve throughout the powerband. I like that. I just want more power. I want a trouble-free engine with regular maintenance. I want durability.

What would you do within those parameters?

First off, what car is it going into?

With that said it doesn't matter, GO WITH A SUBARU MOTOR. They are dependable, torque'y, sound great, and have the ability to get more power than you could ever use in an early Vdub. A stock EJ20 which you can buy used JDM (japenese domestic market) for $650 has the ability to handle 400 hp healthily (healthily is not a word by the way). Outback motors is great with subaru motors but they are a little pricey, and are unrealisticaly low with their hp #'s. I have personally seen a stock internaled subaru EJ20T motor dynoed on a dynojet at 404 hp and 348 lb/ft of torque and Mack at Outback says $12,000 and race gas (110) will barely get an EJ20T up to 300 hp, so if you want to spend more money than you have to and want your hp hopes shattered call them.

With that out of the way, Danzioperformance.com is incredible with rotary's and subaru motors. I have seen tom pull an extra 66 hp from a bone stock 3rd gen 13B-TT rotary just from tuning it correctly. Give them a call and they will sit and talk with you as long as you have questions. They are considerate, realistic and will treat you right.

So to your question. $8,000 will get you a healthy 450 hp, rebuilt with race rods, forged pistons, and with all of the polished goodies your little heart desires on a subaru motor of your choice. Start with a 2.2 liter block (closed block [much stronger]) billet rods, forged pistons, port and polish the heads, new agressive cams, total seal rings, metal head gaskets, TGV deletes, perrin fuel rails, rc injectors, stock header (better spool time), 48 mm wastegate, and a GT-30 turbo will make an extremely responsive motor with great torque, even better top end, an 8,000 rpm redline, and one hell of a ride. GOOD LUCK

So, the bolt highlighted part of your wish list clearly means NO watercooled engine swap! Since that always does include a fair amount of modifying something on the engine, your car (mostly) or - usually - both. And I have not come across a company that sells complete Suby or WBX engines, really ready to bolt in into a bug, although they may be coming. www.bugat5speed.de probably is on their way and Oettinger used to sell a complete conversion 2,1 WBX for the 1303 cabriolet ;)

With that budget and being in the US, it would be very easy to just bring it over to aircooled technology, get a complete ready to bolt in 2,3 ltr Type 4 and be done with it...

Although I like the above advise of the so-called 'ready to bolt-in' Suby 450 Hp engine haha! Yeah, right.

Actually its more of a 'no-brainer' than I thought :D

Regards,
Walter

2056 TIV based on your criteria. the Suby is a tempting option, but you have that little radiator thing to deal with an after meeting Oasis this past weekend, i am feeling that he would rather not go that way, but i could be wrong. a TIV will get you what you want and a 2056 (100-110HP if i remember right) should come in around that price range with everything if you go with Raby (probably cheaper).

for $8000 you could also buy an 82 x 90.5 T1 (2165?)
Run an engle FK8. Power will be down low in the 2000
rpm range and redline around 6 grand. Would be good
for at least 130hp depending on heads.

Included in that $8000, would be turn key motor, exhaust
and also transmission as well. You may even have a $1000
left over as well.

Try VW Paradise, Chico Performnace, or CB Perfomance.
All well known, realiable T1 engine builders that dyno their motors.

A 1971 Super Beetle (1302).

I was a bit surprised to see a Suby suggestion first--in fact, at all. I would have thought the radiator (not mentioned in lazylongboarder's post) would have eliminated water-cooled choices because of the one-off pieces necessary--at least according to what I was following in other threads.

zen is right-on about my reluctancy towards a non-VW, non-air-cooled engine. (Was I that transparent? ;) ) Seriously, I could be talked into anything if it stayed within my parameters but converting me to a Suby may be harder than converting my car.

An interesting alternative.

I had read in the past T4's are the kings of low-end torque. After viewing the dyno of my stocker, it made me question why a modified T1 couldn't do it if it does it in its stock form already.

Would both of these suggestions (2056 T4 and 2110 T1*) offer trouble-free maintenance with oil changes and tune-ups at regular intervals?

* - 90.5mm bore and 82mm stroke calculated to 2110cc if I did it right.

your probably right about the 2110 config.

90.5 are very realiable.
I use them in a 1776 in the Notch.
By adding a big crank, you are adding
lots of bottom end power and increasing
realiability because the motor doesnt have
to work as hard. You can build this motor
all day long in long block for with all quality
parts for less $4000. Add another 2 - 2500
for carbs, exhaust, tin, ignition, etc, etc
and another grand for a tranny and you are
around $7000 to $7500 complete.

Wow attack! Man guys, where does this say no watercooled. You can get someone to install the radiator up front.

No subaru...got it, who wants a motor that is from a maker that was nominated most reliable 2 years by consumer reports and maker of the year in 2004 by car and driver.

This plus this = this.

Now, now, now. Let's simmer down. The other posters are just looking after Dr. Technoklutz; not slamming you or your suggestion.

"Getting someone to install the radiator up front" may sound simple and dandy but it took me a while to find someone willing to install a T4 and associated tranny.

Here are some other things I have read. I understand some things relate to a non-bug and there are different Suby engines from which to choose. Nevertheless...

I understand fully this is doable. I understand there are no (or few) regrets by those who have done it. I am okay with Subaru in general. I like some of their cars although I haven't driven one since considering the purchase of a Brat back in '86. (I bought a Jetta GLI instead which started my VW ownership.)

There just seems to be an inexact science to this. An engine move of an inch or two, adapting the desired tranny, cutting aprons, getting fuel to the engine, installing a radiator and plumbing ...

I didn't read anyone saying this was a bad idea--just a bad idea for me.

Oh, I'm sure I could go to a speed shop or a custom shop or a ricer shop and have it done. But that would (1) change the installation costs and (2) require me to make many return trips to the installer. Why the latter? Because I guarantee you anyone within two hours of me who has done this is a private DIY'er and not a shop, and a shop will be doing this on a trial-and-error basis as it will be their first time.

I know some folks in the Euro-Asian crowd with similar inabilities as me making return trips for turbo tuning. That is one reason why I will probably supercharge my '02 Cabrio rather than turbocharging it.

Do you know what would probably be my first engine to build (or rebuild) if our next house has a garage? A stock 1600 T1. And even if it goes all fine and dandy, it will probably not go into anything but an experimental ratwagen.

That is where I am, and I think that is all that was being referred to since it was I who posed the hypothetical question in the first place.

I still haven't said no water-cooled engines. But words like "easy" and pronouns like "someone" isn't going to convince me because I know my limitations and I don't know very many someones. At this point, the odds of me going the Suby (or rotary) route are only above 0% if one is willing to go out enough decimal places.

Gertie? :D

Aren't 92mm cylinders more risky than 90.5mm as vujade suggested?

As far as I know, you can build a completely streetable 94mm piston engine. 1914's are considered to be extremely reliable and are used as daily grinds. There's a couple guys on TS with street 2332s.

I brought up a 2110 as being my street motor during the GVP grand opening, and I was told to just go all the way to 2332...as it's completely feasible with the right cam and heads....

You can spend $5.5K from www.calperformancelab.com and get a tranny and urethane mounts etc. He has an ad on the Samba, and there was a thread on TS with him, Chico and another guy talking about performance/reliability of thier motors....

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie....php?id=152257

I would consider them....as that's $6K for a 2L WITH tranny and everything INSTALLED.....

I highly recommend Calperformancelab!! I in fact own thier 2110 long block. Awesome guys and great parts and quality! I did alotta research before i got the 2110 they clearly came out on top as far as customer service and positive reviews.. other shops...search on STF for thier name and theres more complaints than good write ups. Nothing but positive for calperformancelab. Any questions you have about them ask me. Id be happy to tell you my experience.

Having just built my 1st type 4, I can say that I think I am done with Type 1's. I would go with the 2056 T4. They are far better built than the Type 1. 5 bolt flywheel to crank vs 1 gland nut and 4 pins, thru bolts vs studs for case/bearing torque, spin on filter stock vs pick-up screen only stock, 94 mm cylinders stock vs 85.5, more cooling fin area than a type 1, Better torque curve, longer lasting, cooler temps, etc, etc. The more you look, the more you like.

I selected $8,000 for this thread for two reasons.

First, another thread was bouncing all over the place depending on the importance of cost in the project. This price point is somewhat in the middle of what the budget may be when the time comes.

Second, it is a price point that is difficult for a fully built Type 4 including exhaust. Below are some sample quotes from Shop Talk Forums:

Now I realize the question was about a 2270 while NO_H20's suggestion is a 2056. But, from a different STF's thread ...

This is not an empty exercize on my part. I enjoy all of the suggestions. I have learned a lot from the above and combined with what I have been learning including from Dyno Day recently, the right decision for me is becoming clear.

At the same time, I don't want to call Jake or any of the suggested Type 1 builders until I know exactly where I stand financially. There was conjecture on other threads on this and other forums that similar displacement Type 1 and Type 4 engines would cost similarly to each other. It seems this myth is now busted.

If my budget becomes $6,000 or $10,000, I think I have a grasp on what I would do. The $8,000 budget seems to be difficult for a correctly built Type 4 and more than enough for a correctly built Type 1.

Above all, it seems I will have nice options regardless of my future budget. Thanks to all who responded. It has been great for me.

The Type 4 will last far longer than the Type 1.

Wow, I guess I just had my own reality check that came with this post. I've always dreamed of a T4 motor, 1911 or 2056, yet with EFI. 13K for a 2270? !@#$%! DUDE! I think everything that goes on over there in GA is awesome, and the R&D dept is far more than anyone could expect when the subject of air-cooled flat-four motors comes up. But too spend 8K on a N/A 2L and still have only 4 gears just makes me wanna put the whole idea of "massive" far behind me, leaving tear drop stain on the ground all along the way. Unless I'm just being typical. I mean honestly, I've only really seen one "built" T4 in action, and it was for 12+ seconds. If 8K makes my bug go for 10+ years w/ regular maintence and still gets the tuner crowd to say "holy crap it's air-cooled..." then I guess I'll just shut my trap, that is until I can experience for myself this T4 revolution.....damnit here comes that $$$ thing again....grrrrr

do the math on building a TF-1 cased engine, using a flanged TI crank (Not chinese made) and all the things needed to create a TI even similarly comparative to the TIV. You will see that it'll take all aftermarket parts to make it happen and the cost will be within 10% of the cost of a TIV. In fact that TIV may be cheaper.

Then, how are all these companies offering a 2L+ for $5K WITH trannies, etc...if all you get with a TIV is a small 2L, and no tranny?

Not knocking the TIV, but like stated, that cost factor seems to be pretty deterring. My buddy spent $5K on his 1914 set-up including Pro-Street tranny and 2500lb clutch. He was saying he coulda done a 2332 for the same price, but he bought the 1914 before he really knew anything and thought 1914 was the "largest streetable/reliable" motor you could get. He never adjusted his valves, and just done regular oil changes...it was his daily grind too....

$13K for a 2L TIV or $5K and get a tranny that has been abused, raced, in traffic and has around 45K+ miles thus far of just oil changes...that route, seems like the obvious logical choice.

Thats easy..

The 2L TI has a Chinese crankshaft, sand cast aluminum case made also in a 3rd world country and about every other part of the same quality (or lack thereof)

Comparing that 2L TI engine to a sL TIV engine isn't even in the same spectrum- I said that building the two engines EQUALLY would cost the same and I wasn't talking about HP wise....

Crappy TI parts that were only getting worse (and of course cheaper AND worse) were the main reason why I stepped away from the TI foundation.

I think we ought to compare apples and apples here. IIRC, the $10k-$12k figure thrown around for a 2270 T4 was for a custom engine assembled with a lot of hands on involvement by a leader in T4 engine development and the owner of the company. Ask yourself what an engine hand assembled by Gene Berg would have cost?

Go to the Type 4 store and price out a 2056 kit. Soup to nuts, including exhaust, ignition, etc, comes to $6k. Pay a good assembler $2k and you are in budget.

Still expensive? Maybe, but I think it's important to make sure the numbers represent what they really are.

R2.0

R2.0 thats an excellent post!

More and more people are buying my kit and having a local builder assemble it.. Thats been a big benefit of the store and it alows me to work on super cool projects in the engine side of the house at the same time because the simple jobs can be bought in kit form and assembled so easily with my preparation and design..

go out and buy a 2332 turn key with 200hp and a stock 1600 dp turn key, you have the best of both worlds still cheaper than a t4.

honestly, i couldnt see paying 10k for a fuggin engine regardless of how much power it makes, and they dont even make "crazy" power, they are just "more reliable" no offense, I said "I", there obviously are people out there that would.

i wouldnt even buy a fuggin gene berg engine.

also, keep in mind, horsepower is addicting, youre almost always going to want to go faster...

type 4s make sense to me, up to a certain point, but after near stock, they just dont.

-Ryan

IF I were gonna spend over $10,000 I would spend an extra $5000
and buy a 4 Cylinder 911 motor. I company in California cuts out
the center 2 cylinders from a 3.6L 911 motor and turns it into a
realiable 200Hp 4 Cylinder 911 motor with dual overhead cams :D

I will most likely do a Type 4 in my Notch, because a T4 in the stock
config makes the most sense in a T3. You dont have to convert it to
upright so there is a big savings there... :agree:

You guys are nuts! a budget of 8k for an engine!? 10K for a TIV!??? And we are not talling about chassis upgrades (brakes, suspensions), transmission, wheels, the list goes on. Why don't you go and buy yourself a good whole Porsche 3.2L for around 17k!? Tabarnak! nowadays there is no modern car company that sells their "little" engines for such a big price.

Wake up, for that matter it is true that a complete subi ej20 sells for 450$,a ej20T for 650$ and a Twin Turbo with anougth power to tear up your transmission for 850$. Of course the problem is to have someone to install it but I'm just talking about the basic price before instalation. i was no big fan of Subi power but i'm thinking about it...

I'm a little disgusted. Don't get me wrong: I'm totally into German Look and what it implies, but I think that a beetle is a little Porsche, and it will stay a LITTLE Porsche, as long as you have fun with it. Then if you wan real power, serious handling, go with a real porsche, or you will end up paying twice the price of a porsche for a car that want's to be but never quite will... Ouf, feel better now that I let some steam out. :o Sorry guys, I know this doesn't help, it is just opinions.

'Kleinporsche' (whats in a name),

You obviously have totally NOT understood what drives most of us...

That is not the fact that we can't buy a 'real' porsche (or even would want one (I wouldn't, really)! I can and could have done so, many times, easily, but I don't want one for many reasons.
Do you really think that we can't add up numbers (costs) ourselves and have not realised we could have gotten a nice old 911 for the same money?
Why do people automatically assume that everybody thinks that a porsche is cooler to have than an old vw :confused: :bawling:

For your consellation (sp?): most people don't understand why s/one else puts a lot of money into a bug or any aircooled old vw...

And as to your conception of the 'real' power and 'real' handling of a porsche versus one of 'our' cars: Mwhahahah!! please read up, your in for a big surprise... :laugh:

Reagrds,
Walter

As the thread-starter, I feel that it is okay for me to reel the discussion back to its original premise. In the meantime, I hope we are having lively debates and not headed into anything mean-spirited.

First off, I have already made the changes in brakes and suspension. There may be an eventual tweak I want to do but that is so far down the road from here it's not even funny.

Second, I am not looking for crazy horsepower and I am not looking to being the biggest bad cat around. I do want plenty of giddy-up should I need it from a stand-still. And I want plenty of power so the only thing separating me and some other driver is the difference between me and that other driver (unless he chooses to drive an underpowered beast).

I do like the power curve of my stock engine; I just don't like how low it is. If it is doubled to tripled at the wheels, I would be desiring about 100-130 HP at 4100 RPMs and 140-200 LB-FT of torque at 2700.

I do not know an assembler of a Type 4 engine much less a good one. And that's regardless of price.

My long-time mechanic is willing to install whatever I decide on getting as long as it does not require fabrication. And they (at the shop) are willing to do any fixing or regular maintenance it would need. They are not willing to assemble anything, however.

My mechanic is willing to put me in touch with someone he knows who builds Type 1 engines. He has enough faith in this guy as a builder (and, perhaps, me as an anal retentive owner) he would back up that work with a year's guarantee.

I have not met with this cat yet so I appreciate the suggestions being bandied about as far as other builders of Type 1 engines are concerned.

(By the way, I happened to be at the Gene Berg site on another issue and wandered into the "engines" page. I did not see a 2110 listed. Perhaps that is because they are into the drag racing scene and a 2110 is not the best option for their typical customer.)

Anyone doing a search on my posts here and elsewhere (or possessing a strong memory) knows I had sort of thought a 2270 T4 was going to be my Super's engine. There are reasons I am starting to waver on this plan. None of those reasons have anything to do with a loss of respect I have for the T4 engine.

I stated in an earlier post within this thread saying "someone" can build it--whatever "it" is--is not workable in my situation.

If buying a kit and having someone build it is your best suggestion, I am all ears ... or eyes, I guess. But that someone needs to be named to stay within the parameters of my origianl thread.

To be fair, I did not mention having a potential lead on a T1 builder because (a) I still haven't met him, and (b) I wanted a fair fight between the T1 and T4 and any other solution offered.

So far, there have been three or four T1 builders mentioned and recommended. While a 2056 T4 was suggested, no builder was attached. The only builder I know is Jake, and I already posted excerpts of potential pricing with that route. (An interesting aside, I posted the question of alternative builders of T4 engines over a year ago at another site. Some bird brain there chided me about doing a search--as if I hadn't done it already. A year later I revisited that thread still without an answer. And I still didn't get one--even from the know-it-all bird brain.)

Again, I am doing a ballpark figure with the 8k. I have to see how my money turns over to know for sure what that figure is going to be. I think I know what I am going to do if that figure is higher or lower. Eight thou seems to be the figure that puts me in turmoil.

I have said before and I will keep repeating it as it applies ... I appreciate all of the responses. I am absorbing it all.

This topic reminds me about Ducati's....Seems like everybody on the planet that doesn't own them states "Valve adjustements every 3K miles....they're just too much/high maintenance..." Yet, the people that really own them find it's not as hyped up as people make it to be.....

I know Jake, you stated quality, or lack thereof of the Chinese cranks....but if it's not broke......

This isn't to say they aren't crap, but if multiple people are using them, and are having no issues, who really cares?

Based off of the 4 people I know PERSONALLY(seems like everybody these days goes off internet "I knows") that have stroker T1's, all of them have nothing BUT a reliable motor. When I say reliable, I say no major issues. They don't even do the much heated valve adjustments. Most have electronic ignition, but even still have no electrical issues. Cars start right up, and is just like any modern day engine and recieve no attention that any other engine wouldn't recieve, except it's air cooled.

Of them 4, 2 of them had a Serrano engine. One had misc built pieced motor, lots of Autocraft parts, assembled by a local shop, and the other guy, I dunno where he got his motor/tranny from, but it was somebody out in cali, where he now moved back to.

As far as the Porsche comment...I don't really think that's an arguement, more as it is a statement. As most people can and would drive a 911 if truly given the option, but it's not that....it's something totally different that drives you to do what we're doing...kinda like that ricer who drives a $50K Civic. It's faster than a Vette, and hell, he dropped all $50K at one time, yet, he'd still rather drive his Civic.

I think this topic is making some great points. Like stated in other threads, having the AC motor in the bug is what more or less seperated the Beetle from everyother little ecobox car with a huge motor. Although, it's a blanket statement, most of it holds valid except the out of box great chassis that the bug has. Most Ecobox cars don't have the handling STOCK that bugs do...

But what it boils down to, is how dedicated to wanna be to it. Even if you don't wanna be "the top dawg", everybody wants the most for your money. Are you really willing to drop that many thousand dollars on an aircooled motor, especially a TIV if the most uneconomical choice (pricewise) of the bunch, just to say you're staying true to the ACVW GL? I mean like stated, that's alot of dough to be dropping just to stay aircooled.

To put it into perspective. The COVETED Type R motor with low miles INCLUDING tranny, ECU and wiring harness is ballpark $5K. That's 200HP straight out of the factory box with low miles and Honda "beat the **** outta me and I can still take more" reliability. All OEM from the factory, so you have a completely stock 200HP motor. Granted, if you drop that into a Civic, it won't be as fast as a Bug with a $5K/200HP worth of motor in it, but the point is, that guy with a Honda spent $5k for a complete package. I mean hell, even the V8 guys are spending only $5-9K on a V8 crate motor and getting 500-800HP... They might be getting "cheap parts", but thier motor is just as reliable and is running the same HP numbers/times at the track as the guy with the $20K GM Factory performance engine who wanted to stay true to his roots/pay for the R&D.....

Sorry again and again Oasis and all of you guys for creating quite a stir. I really admire your work: you are building dream cars. I'm thinking Jak Riz, El Rookie, Superman, Oicdn, 73notch, etc etc.

I'm gratefull because this thread made me think again and I have changed my mind on the whole thing. For me German Look is about taking the most of a beetle and giving it modern technologies while keeping a vintage Ferdinand Prorsche spirit. You've got to be careful not to change it more or less into a kit-car... chevy engie, rx-7 brakes, 944 rear suspension, 993 5-speed trans, etc etc. A Beetle must stay a Beetle. Herbie as a Nascar racer is stupid.

I think I'm gonna go medium T1 probably a 1914cc, swing axle, 4 speed with a good chassis preparation for a vintage track racer such as what Porsche did with the 356 and 550 back then. Stay true to Aircool (even though I love the sound and performance a suby can offer for the price) and push the beetle to it's reasonable limits: just to have fun driving it (It doesn't mean that I don't want to be able to outhandle or beat any little ricer with they caps backwards: I DO. And I will need your support and help to achive that). Final words: I don't believe these car were meant for 200hp. and Civics are not meant to be drag racers. ;)

With all my respect -Kleinporsche (it mean small porsche in german Wally)

No, not originally, but limitations are only in your head I strongly believe.
The original beetle was only meant for 24,5 hp and not 50hp, but volkswagen themselves evolved the bug into a better bug each model year.
See what we do as catching up of VW's halted R&D over the years...
Starting to see what I mean? Now, thats the german style/spirit... :D

Oh, and I really know the german language quite well actually ( as I double as a mod on a german forum as well ;) )

I am only going to say this once,for you to build what is know as a reliable t1 engine you will have to buy parts along the line of autocraft ( expensive ) , gene berg ( expensive ), pauter ( expensive ). What jake is saying is that a t4 2ltr engine can be built from 2.0l to 2.4ltr using the stock crank and be very reliable. Elroocky on this forum ran a 2.4ltr t4 motor in races for 8 years now that motor is in a daily driven bug he says not once have they pulled the block. Jake has taken a 1.7ltr t4 motor and turned it into a 3.0 monster.

you dont need gene berg parts or pauter parts to have a reliable T1 motor.
Other then the Gene Berg Shifter, Intermediate Mount & IDA stacks, most
Gene Berg Parts are over priced and unnecessary to have a realiable motor.
Nor do you need Pauter parts. You can build a realiable T1 motor with
CB Performance, Scat, Demello and plenty of other well know companies.

One more thing, a T4 motor doesnt have to cost you over $10000 to be
good either. This isnt rocket science. This is motor building. There is a point
where it just isnt worth spending the extra $1000's of dollars just to make it
a little better when you can get a damn good motor for thousands less with
out all the extra upgrades that may or may not make it a little more realiable.

First off I would like to appoligize to the thread starter, Oasis, because I will be taking my post on a tangent. About a year and half ago there was a kid on here by the name mystical, who had a opportunity to purchase a mullholland look super for cheap(I wonder why :rolleyes: ). I guess he was in the tuner scene and wanted to get the most out of the car for autocross or something. He had never owned a older VW before so this was his first project. Needless to say lots and lots of questions, and i think he thought you could take a cheap bug and make it badass very easily. To make a short story long, he didn't live far from me so I showed my old '72 Super that at the time was under construction.
What we're, the GL community,doing can only be described as insane. A GLed VW is a economy car turned into a super car, you can't just bolt some parts on it and be done with it. This is accomplished after many months, I dare say years in my case, and the only way one continues on this hurdle course is to have a incredable love for this car. Who else would spend so much time researching, running down the "right" parts for his vision, the countless long hours of fabricating, and the money that is required for this project of projects. Now a car like Alex's old split, which in my mind is the ultimate GL, would you just spend a few thousand on a cheaply built T1, hell no you don't. You put the biggest baddest muther fukker that will fit in it, and that my friend is going to cost some serious cheddar.
I'm working on a budget, I'm cutting as many corners as I can and still have a quality GL. With all the help of my VW friends I'm still looking at least $7K in the car total, thats the car, lil pussy disc brakes, a stock 2L T4, 901, paint, cage, and tuner rims. Who the hell would buy a '71 Super Beetle in California for $7000? Only somenone who is insane would, if you want to look at it on paper. There is a feeling that get when you drive around in something that should be, but is because you built it. I want that feeling, I will keep at this through hell and high water. I sleep, live, and breathe this stuff.
As far as the cost of powerplants go why don't you ask some of the guys on here who have spent big bucks on a engine ask if they were to do it again would they go that route. Also ask the guys running the EJ's or the ecotec's if they are glad they did it. Me I'll run the 2.0L for a while and put a EJ in my 914 and see how I like it before I start to cut up my 1302. The good thing about GL is you can run whatever engine you want in your car, run whatever brakes, tranny choice it doesn't matter as long as you are getting the most gains. Me personally I see zero advantages in a swing axle, but there are a couple of guys wanting to go there, whatever I won't knockem.

Sorry bout the length,
Nick

No apologies are necessary.

I just wanted to be sure that staying within $8,000 and the other stated parameters, there was only one choice--albeit with slight variations and multiple choices of builders. That choice is the Type 1.

That is not a knock at Type 4 engines. That is not a knock at Suby engines. Each seemed to go outside my parameters by saying I needed to get "someone" to do this or to do that. Unless or until I find that "someone" it is not really a choice.

There will be plenty of time for me to find that "someone." During that time I will discover if the dollar figure is accurate or not.

I'm only the thread starter; not the thread owner. Feel free to tangent away. I'm still reading, learning, and enjoying.

Everyone has been civil. That's the most important set of parameters to stay within.

I didn't go the T4 route, cause i wanted some serious power. My NA 2332 makes the 200hp, and i've gotten too used to it. So in the Split, a 2332 turbo will be stuffed in it. Plans are EFI, Turbo, Intercooled. Looking for 300-450hp.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/...7.jpg~original

Yes, and i learned to spend it once on quality parts. I'd rather spend a couple bucks more doing a T1/T4, then cutting it up. I don't want to Hack out the back of the car to put a rotary/ecotec/suby in it. In my opinion it needs to stay aircooled.


Problem is, i don't like old, nice, slow 911's. The ones i would fancy cost a little more. So until i can buy a upgraded 930, 993TT, or 996GT2/GT3 I will continue trying to make my bugs go faster, turn and brake harder. It's only costing me 1/2 the cheddar, and I AM doing it.

Here in Jamaica you have some guy's who went suby conversion and to what i have understand they weren't done properly. I guest those guy's will be looking for new chasis soon. But let me ask only one question isn't the suby engine heavier than the t4 if so those bugs will have cornering issues. I am somewhat going gl look without porsche rims, for now as my car was swing axle. I onced took a ride in my friends 2.0l type 1 engine car and saw what he did in corners and knew i could not do that with a swing axle car so at the end of this month i will be changing the chasis for a irs backend chasis.

oasis, talk to No_H2O if you want one of jake's kits assembled. i am betting he would be up for it since your schedule would be fairly flexible and he knows the stuff well. you won't find a more honest and reliable person too.

Zen has an excellent idea...

As far as thre 4 cylinder 911 engine goes:
They start at 22K and if it breakes EVERY part has to be purchased from the man himself..

If you want to create a car thats no longer a true VW- install a radiator..

VuJade- I don't know who pissed in your cornflakes, but your comments are just about to piss me off.... Your discounting of what goes into one of my engines is about as far off base as a foul ball...

So if it's so damn easy, why didn't you build you own???? Next time we see each other eyeball to eyeball I think we need to have a serious chat.

how can that be? last time i looked on my registration, it said vw in clear print. :p

the whole point of his post was to say you can still build a good engine withall the fancy stuff that is available today. When building an engine like this, it isnt rocket science. he wasnt saying anything bad about jake rabys engines, he just said u can build a decent engine yourself for alot less. i could tell you right now how to build a 2270 for 2200 bucks, it wouldnt be as fancy and well thought out as your engines, but im sure it would be good.

-Ryan

Real VWs don't have radiators- either from the factory or otherwise..

Like I said before- The aircooled characteristic of the VW is the only thing that separates it from any other economy car of the era... Be it a Ford Pinto, Chevy Chevette, or Toyota Corolla....

Taking that away from it creates a pretty wothless car to a true VW enthusiast, a vehicle that has no historical value.

But of course this is coming from someone that refuses to own a car with a radiator....