Wishbone suspension bolt on kit

[MikeVW]

Might work! I hear these guys have a really good reputation for quality http://www.heidts.com/heip17.htm

Mike

[Panelfantastic]

Not overly obvious LT. Jason's whole mission was to make it "bolt on" to any stock pan without having to hack-n-whack. He could have saved a ton of time and money doing it your way but he refuses to be sensible .
Have you seen the arse end of his car? ...but he doesn't want to cut the front !

(Lets see how long it takes dent to rip me a new one... )


Jeff-

[VRSICK]

How exactly would you get the mustang II front end to match up with the bug, or ghia front end?? Start hacking and welding it in I soppose, right? I just finished a beetle project, but i'm considering a ghia 'vert project that I want to start up. My MAIN goal is to make this ghia as highway-able as possible (Maintain speeds of 80+) and this sounds like something I may be able to throw into my blackboard of ideas and combinations of notions.

(Wonder if they can custom make the bolt pattern)

[volkdent]

As long as you don't mind hacking and have a very good grasp of suspension design, anything is possible. I don't remember if the Mustangs spindle steering arms are high or low. I used VW because they are high and clear the shifter tunnel.

Jason

[MikeVW]

The mustang II has lower steer and I believe the steering arms are in front. The good part about the mustang setup is that you don't need to know much about steering design because it has been perfected in the setup. You just need to be good at fabricating and attaching the new suspension. I think most of the tunnel would be hacked away to make room for this proposed suspension.

Mike

[Shadowbug]

Originally Posted by MikeVW

The good part about the mustang setup is that you don't need to know much about steering design because it has been perfected in the setup.

this is only true if you are using the mustang II sock width, ride height and everything.

I'm using mustangII spindles on my locost (lotus 7 replica) and after plugging the MII dimensions into a suspension analyser I came to the conclusion that there is a lot of room for improvement. In an unequal length non paralell A-arm suspeension, you want as minimal movement of the roll center as possible, first of all the MII roll center was a little higher than I liked, and second it was all over the map in bump and roll.

I've dialed it in for my setup, so I get less than .05 inches of movement in 2" bump or a 3 degree roll, with the roll center at 1" below ground level. My rear suspension is a little looser woth .08" of movement and a roll center of 2" above ground level.

Once I'm finished this project, I'm going to build a new pan for my beetle with A-arm suspension front and rear, I'm fairly sure it "can " be done without cutting the pan (at least in the front) but it would be easier, stronger and lighter to cut out the old and build an all new sub structure.

If I were to market a kit to replace the stock front end with a A-arm unit I'd make it a weld in, so the owner will have to take some responsibility for it.

[volkdent]

Originally Posted by Shadowbug

this is only true if you are using the mustang II sock width, ride height and everything.

I'm using mustangII spindles on my locost (lotus 7 replica) and after plugging the MII dimensions into a suspension analyser I came to the conclusion that there is a lot of room for improvement. In an unequal length non paralell A-arm suspeension, you want as minimal movement of the roll center as possible, first of all the MII roll center was a little higher than I liked, and second it was all over the map in bump and roll.

I've dialed it in for my setup, so I get less than .05 inches of movement in 2" bump or a 3 degree roll, with the roll center at 1" below ground level. My rear suspension is a little looser woth .08" of movement and a roll center of 2" above ground level.

Once I'm finished this project, I'm going to build a new pan for my beetle with A-arm suspension front and rear, I'm fairly sure it "can " be done without cutting the pan (at least in the front) but it would be easier, stronger and lighter to cut out the old and build an all new sub structure.

If I were to market a kit to replace the stock front end with a A-arm unit I'd make it a weld in, so the owner will have to take some responsibility for it.

Thank you Shadowbug, this is the kind of language that is spoken when you are deciding to build a suspension system, so if you don't know what he's talking about, you need to learn before you suggest that making a suspension system is easy. Shadowbug knows more than I do about suspension geometry because he's worked with it on a program and in the real world, I have not even done that, but I've read a lot about it and paid someone who DOES know what they are talking about to design mine. Any time small changes are made it has a ripple effect on the whole suspension system, and small changes make big differences at the wheel.

S-Bug, when you get to that point, give me a shout, I have many of the pan dimensions laid out perfectly, and the idea of a rear A-arm system has been very intriguing to me too. BTW, you're link no longer works, I'd love to see what you've been up to.

Jason

[GS guy]

FWIW The Mustang II front suspension isn't the best from a geometry perspective for optimized handling. Sure, it's an A-arm layout but was designed back in the 70's to do a decent job and be inexpensive to mass produce. It's a parallel unequal length layout that doesn't provide very good camber gain and lots of in/out scrub. OK for a hot-rod but not the best if you're wanting "sports car" handling. However, it's still relatively inexpensive with lots of aftermarket versions available - I'm fitting a version of it to my fiberglass body (tube chassis) buggy. I'm going to alter the geometry a little and with the limited suspension travel it shouldn't be too bad. Ideally, you'd lengthen the a-arms (from the stock geometry) and re-work the pick-up points but I don't have room in the buggy for longer arms. Also the spindles aren't really that ideal either, pick-up points require mounting the spindle high (relative to the chassis) - the axle is very low on the spindle. When you start really working the parts for improved geometry you eventually find you'd be better off just starting with a better spindle to start with and working in from there!
I've read ATS is (or will be at some point) coming out with an improved version of the M-II spindle, but that may be quite some time from now...

On the plus side, it was designed to carry the weight of a V8 so the bearings and ball joints are quite a bit beefier than VW (but not "too massive") - great from a performance perspective. Also, with the Chassis Shop/Wilwood brakes the spindle/brake/hub package is significantly lighter than standard VW items even with a bigger rotor size! Built-in domestic bolt pattern comes with the package.
Jeff

[Last Triumph]

My theory is this.

I'd love to build the perfect front end for a Beelte, but I don't have access to the maths to work it out.

I'd love to bolt an optimised system straight to my frame head and 'drive away' but nobody make a commercially available system yet....?

Even if I did design my own system, I understand that just one of the elements needs to be only slightly out to screw everything up so it would end up being dreadful anyway.

The VW trailing arm is very poor anyway so it doesn't take much to improve on it.

Whilst the MII system is by no means perfect, it is a pretty good effort and certainly a massive improvement on standard.

It allows the easy fitment of big brakes, comes in attractive chrome finshes with many variable options and is complete as a unit including steering.

If someone can come up with an easier, cheaper and more optimized bolt on system, let me know?

On the basis that I'll be doing an IRS conversion, chopping a G50 trans into the pan, cutting off a frame head and fabricating mounts for an all in one front end shouln't be too difficult as long as it's correctly jigged and mounted?

[volkdent]

Sounds great. Just think about it LONG and HARD. There are soooo many variables to consider when it comes to adding suspension, especially if you want to limit cutting/welding. How will your steering column integrate into the new steering setup, will your tie rods have room to move, where will your rack sit, how will the angles end up, etc. Lots and lots of variables. It can definately be done and really, like you say, it shouldn't be that difficult. Mine had a lot of restrictions due to the parameter limits I set, but if you don't mind doing using American parts and doing some cutting, it really won't be too terrible. Keep in mind that the Mustang II suspension was designed for a car much wider than a bug, so roll center needs to be adjusted. Remember the results need to be worth the effort.

Jason

[Panelfantastic]

Jason,
When you gonna pull the trigger on this Thailand option? I'd like to hear what sort of impact on pricing, the mass production will have. The killer is gonna be how many units you have to buy to get a decent deal. Be sure you get a pre production version to test before they do a full run... then send it to me so I can evaluate it .


Jeff-

[volkdent]

Originally Posted by Panelfantastic

Not overly obvious LT. Jason's whole mission was to make it "bolt on" to any stock pan without having to hack-n-whack. He could have saved a ton of time and money doing it your way but he refuses to be sensible .
Have you seen the arse end of his car? ...but he doesn't want to cut the front !

(Lets see how long it takes dent to rip me a new one... )


Jeff-

He he, I missed this one! Jeff states the truth, I'm crazy. But it turns out there is a method to my madness. I've been looking into working with a guy from Thailand to modify and and mass produce a better version of what I've already made. Wouldn't you like to bolt up a serious suspension on your bug, built for your bug, and with minor body mods?!!

Just making a front end is easy, making it bolt on with minor modifications, priceless...

Jason

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by Panelfantastic

Not overly obvious LT. Jason's whole mission was to make it "bolt on" to any stock pan without having to hack-n-whack. He could have saved a ton of time and money doing it your way but he refuses to be sensible .
Have you seen the arse end of his car? ...but he doesn't want to cut the front !

(Lets see how long it takes dent to rip me a new one... )


Jeff-

You noticed that too? I noticed it a while back, but I couldn't think of a good way to ask about it or point it out with out sounding smart@$$.

[volkdent]

Originally Posted by Mikey

You noticed that too? I noticed it a while back, but I couldn't think of a good way to ask about it or point it out with out sounding smart@$$.

It's my rolling test lab, what can I say?!!

Jason