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  #16  
Old February 3rd 2005, 00:50
Superman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattfaulkner
Isn't this a downforce issue? Is there a way to get enough downforce on these cars to take the floatiness away...
Lowered suspension (to bring the body's center of gravity down) and a front spoiler (to stop the air from getting under the car).
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  #17  
Old February 3rd 2005, 09:24
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a roof spoiler will also help the rear of the car from getting light at
speeds
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  #18  
Old February 3rd 2005, 12:51
mattfaulkner mattfaulkner is offline
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Hey everybody. (especially Zen) What are the chances of setting up a little challenge between the two cars? Could we get a stock standard and a stock super, do the above mentioned mods, and see what they'll do? Or are there already two members who have cars that would work? Maybe topline or red9design (sp?) would even sponsor the event by letting us use or borrow some parts. It's just a thought, but it sure would be a neat thing to see. It would certainly make my mind up on what to start with for my GL.

Matt F.
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  #19  
Old February 4th 2005, 02:01
Che Castro Che Castro is offline
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The macpherson strut suspension is superior to the parallel trailing arms. The problem isnt really with the torsion bars itself (they are still used on a lot of european small cars in the rear) but the way the wheel moves.

Thats not to say a beam front end can't handle well and go fast, it'll just never be as good as a strut setup.
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  #20  
Old February 4th 2005, 04:02
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Meanwhile back at the unladen weights ... according to the 1975 owner's manual, a standard weighs 1,973 lbs. and a Super weighs 2,072 lbs. -- a 99 lb. difference.

The 1971 owner's manual lists the weights as 1,807 and 1,918, respectively -- a 111 lb. difference.

A 1967 standard weighs 1,764 lbs. according to its owner's manual.

The only way there could be a 500 lb. difference would be if one compares a 1952 split window to a 1975 Super -- and that would be assuming the '52 was a svelt 1,572 lbs. Under those apples and oranges comparisons, a '71 Super weighs 55 lbs. less than a '75 standard.

And now back to the never-ending debate and the challenge to begin all challenges ...
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  #21  
Old February 4th 2005, 04:53
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Originally Posted by oasis
The only way there could be a 500 lb. difference would be if one compares a 1952 split window to a 1975 Super
I think it's (for a weight increase of that amount) more if...

one compares a 1952 split window to a 1975 Super convertible
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  #22  
Old February 4th 2005, 11:52
Supa Ninja Supa Ninja is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman
I think it's (for a weight increase of that amount) more if...

one compares a 1952 split window to a 1975 Super convertible

Ha, ha...Here's my opinion, back when my 1302's suspension was bone stock, I owned for a short period of time a '73 beetle (bone stock). I remember how scary that beetle felt in some twisties that the supa had no problems with. I also remember the first time I drove a buddies cal looked '66 around some mild corners. I thought for sure I was going to wad it up, that thing was scary as hell to drive in the twisties.
About the contest, if your going to beef up the front sway bar you'll HAVE to install a rear sway bar, or you'll have some serious understeer. I don't know how many of you'all read in VWTrends about the BFGoodrich G-Force challenge, but the contest should be like that. Try to keep the tires equal, and see what suspension will come up on top. All I know is when my Supa was road worthy it could out corner my 914 (former autoX car). My money is on the Supa.

Nick
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  #23  
Old February 4th 2005, 12:25
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i would love to see some scientific study. problem is, i don't know anyone with stock VWs and then willing to do like upgrades is nearly impossible. if there are any ideas how to pull this off and people willing to help, i would love to see it happen.

No_H2O and i may be able to do some comparisons since we will have a weekend coming up of Dyno Day and drag racing (yea, i know but it is resto guys hosting the event and for some reason we just haven't been able to sway them to a coned road course but we may just set one up in the parking lot anyway ), but it is far from scientific. he has a '72 1302, me a '73 standard. he a 2276 T1 with about 135-140HP at the crank as i recall, me 2316 TIV with 176HP (Dyno Day will tell us the impact at the wheels). he 16's with Ghia brakes, me 17's with 951's so i have to turn a bunch more wheel and brake weight. he MaxxStruts, me stock beam with Koni Reds. he stock rear, me 951 rear with Koni Reds. can't remember his sway bar, mine is a 3/4". not sure if he has a rear, i don't at the moment. i also have a much lower center of gravity as mine is lower, chopped top and i sit on the floor just about. we have not weighed them yet, but i am estimating about 1750lbs for my car due to fiber fenders, lexan, no rear seat, race front seats but add in wheels, stereo, TIV.

my bet his he would easily kill me in the corners and i would kill him on the exits and straights due to the torque advantage. we will see what we can come up with.
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  #24  
Old February 4th 2005, 14:57
mattfaulkner mattfaulkner is offline
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Zen: I'm excited to see what comes of that. I realize it won't be super accurate data, but at least we'll get a real, experience-based result from it. For the real-deal challenge, maybe we (as a forum) could set up a challenge donation fund for two cheap stockers (you really only need one engine-just swap it from car to car), and maybe get with the parts suppliers for part sponsors. I realize that some some pretty extensive planning would be involved, but it sure would produce some sweet data for us as well as future GL fans!

Oasis: I looks like the standard's weight advantage is shrinking by the minute. Thanks for the owners manual info.
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  #25  
Old February 5th 2005, 00:42
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The answer is simple, Volkswagen has never in it's history built a new car that wasn't better than the one before (their cars are constantly improved), the cars were always improved and one of the selling points of the Super was it's better handling (you can read and see that statement in VW's 70's adverts).

Comparing a Standard to a Super is like (suspension wise) comparing a Porsche 356 to a 911... the design just kept getting better and yielding better results on the road/track.
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  #26  
Old February 5th 2005, 02:17
mattfaulkner mattfaulkner is offline
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Superman: I'll be honest with you. The 1303 is sounding like a better platform to start with all the time. It may be 55 or so lbs heavier than the same year standard, but with a curved windshield (aero advantage?), better steering, and coilovers, it may be the ticket for ultimate type 1 performance.
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  #27  
Old February 5th 2005, 12:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattfaulkner
Superman: I'll be honest with you. The 1303 is sounding like a better platform to start with all the time. It may be 55 or so lbs heavier than the same year standard, but with a curved windshield (aero advantage?), better steering, and coilovers, it may be the ticket for ultimate type 1 performance.
Ive just stepped up from a 71 1302 to a 75 1303 and with its Rack & Pinion
steering it is even another step forward in the driving experience. I am glad
that I chose the 1303 as a platform for another GL. On the flip, an early
standard cant be beat for straightline performance
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  #28  
Old February 5th 2005, 22:41
Dennis Dennis is offline
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I have a 70 standard with a 2275 and a close ratio box. I'm in the process of upgrading the brakes to 944 turbo on all 4 wheels, from a ghia front disk/drum rear set-up. I'm also changing the 15 inch Fuchs wheels to 17X7 front and 17X8.5 rear Porsche Boxter twists. In other words it's a cal-look that is about to be changed to a GL.
If I had to do it all over I would start with a Super if what I wanted was a high horsepower track car. Not that the standard is all that bad in the handling area. It's just that the strut suspension is better when it comes to cornering. You could make some improvements to the front suspension on the standard and it would come close to matching the handling of the super. But with the super the improvements are already there.

The 55 pound difference is nothing. If you want to lighten up the car you can replace the steel fenders with fiberglass and reduce weight in other areas of the car. But the weight difference shouldn't be an issue when making a choice.
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  #29  
Old February 6th 2005, 00:22
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... you all are making me think too much as well!!!

From my experience though the rear end was the weak part in the suspension of a standard IRS Beetle. Which would apply to a Super as well. The rears are just too soft.

Also on the Super to make it look "right" the rear needs widened with 'glass fenders and 944 wide control arms. Which is work no matter what.

Granted I like the 1303s curved window and short hood look. plus the truck is actually usable!

... Still more thinking...
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  #30  
Old February 6th 2005, 01:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillow
From my experience though the rear end was the weak part in the suspension of a standard IRS Beetle. Which would apply to a Super as well. The rears are just too soft.
You could always use the 944 torsion bars or an uprated Sway away bar to stiffen up the rear end.

Quote:
Also on the Super to make it look "right" the rear needs widened with 'glass fenders and 944 wide control arms. Which is work no matter what.
I agree completely about the rear needing to be widened on a Super...

Quote:
Granted I like the 1303s curved window and short hood look. plus the truck is actually usable!
I cant agree with you more
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