Ethanol in a VW motor

[V.waffe 3]

Hey folks,

I was curious if anyone knows if you can run E85 ethanol in a stock VW or if there are some modifications that could be made to do so. Out here in middle America we have pretty cheap ethanol supply. I have heard it is around 93 octane? I have also heard that ethanol is pretty big in Brazil. If you guys have any ideas please let me know.

[1500SBR]

Hey V.
I'm from Brazil. My GL is a sole alcohol burner (we have what is called hidrated alcohol, has a bit of water in it). From what I understand E85 has 15% of gasoline, which should make it pretty good to use it. What I know is for our kind of alcohol, I guess your is a tad less forgiving (because of the little sip of gas in it).

Just for refference, i have a 1914, dual 44, W110 cam, 40X35 heads...bla,bla,bla

Compression is the first difference. My car runs 13:1. If the engine was stock (given the bugs old design) this should be 10,5:1 (modern engines run 12,5). I'm doing a few changes in my engine now (bigger cam) and along with that will go with 14:1. So you get the picture.

Then you need more fuel, consumption is much higher. Carburator needles have to be bigger (my dual Weber 44 use 250 needles) and an electric fuel pump. Idles are 85, mains are 200 and airs are 210. The Etubes have to be richer too. I use F3s.

Timming is different too. I start with 16 and advance it to 32.

Alcohol has less energy in it, so it is ****ty if you don't have the compression bump, there are no advantages. It is awesome for turbo. To give you an idea there are guys running completely stock 1600 (with a gasoline CR) and nasty turbo systems. I know of a specif one that makes 326fwhp on a bone stock motor running 30psi, that without an intercooler. (it is a modern Kombi engine, the ones which stopped production a few months ago).

So, if you build an E85 engine, that's cool, if you convert (carbs only, without CR), there is nothing to gain. If you go turbocharged, then you guys will start understanding what turbos can really do. And all of a sudden a 326 stock 1600 won't sound so crazy....

Best regards,
Marcelo

[vwdmc16]

326 hp out of 1600cc? say what!

how the life on those huh?

sure your not burning rings off or having heads walk off?

[1500SBR]

We get that a lot VWDMC.

They don't burn rings (how do you do that anyways??) and they will throw the heads out, if built on an old style engine. As you know the aircooled engine was produced in Brazil up until a couple of months ago. Since I don't know when, they have been a little better, and strong enough to withstand 30psi of boost (depending on compressor size) if correctly tuned.

One guy managed the 326 FWHP on a otherwise stock 1600 engine, running only a set of twin 32 throttle bodies with 8 injectors (which we allow it to pass as stock since the engines did come of the line with twin 32 cards in Brazil and later MPFI with a single throttle body, so it is a mixture of both - the extra 4 injectors, well that's just what it take to feed the bastard).

But many guys manage something like 280, 300...

It is funny you ask how is the life on those, but we in general don't seem to build 100.000 mile cars. It is more of a build it, drive for awhile, upgrade it, drive some more... so I don't know how long they will last. Probably won't last an endurance race, but then again it is not an endurance race engine. It will last a few gearboxes, clutches, broken axles, and sets of tires on the street.

The reason I mention these turbo engines is because we have been running the turbo fever ever since 1976 when alcohol came out. We have come a long way on developing these engines.

The problems and fears I hear you guys having today (such as modifying carb seals for blow through turbos, burned this, burned that) where the ones we had in the past and learned to deal with them.

I wish I could help my fellow hot rodders. Turbos are a lot of fun.

My Vw Dud is not turbo though, and that's because in Brazil to be different, you have to run dual carbs on a normally aspirated engine. Everyone runs turboed EFI.
My dayly driver though is a stock Opel Astra with a turbo kit. 300hp on an otherwise stock motor with 10psi....30.000 miles so far, only broken clutches and 2 sets of rubber.

Best regards,
Marcelo

[vwdmc16]

Hey you might be able to get quite a business going if you set up kits for turbo 1600s on ethanal and sell it to the U.S. since we always want more power.

I hope to hear some more developments from you soon

cheers

[1500SBR]

Hey VWDMC,

Do you want to do that, me and you? I'll send you the kits and you sell them over there. How much money you think a person would be willing to spend on a kit?

What do you think this kit should have, besides the manifold, BOV, WG, and up and down pipes? I mean, do you think it should include the injection, clutch, intercooler....

Let me know.
Regards,
Marcelo

[vwdmc16]

yeah i think a complete kit (with great instructions) would be required. perhaps the U.S. isn't ready to go ethanol completely, but telling the world of your power discoveries would speed things along.

Even better could be a complete engine(Ready to run), trans and clutch that can handle the power without having the axles go walkies

i'm not to up to date on the whole ethanol creating process or how to use it to get best results.

Give us a run-down on the ingredent list and specs, and what it could possibly cost.

i'd say you could sell the bits for around $1-2k because that would still be a bargain for 300+hp on cheap fuel or $4k+ for a complete set up for the "lazy" hot rodders

Try throwing this idea out on Thesamba.com and i bet people would bite if you tell them how rather easy the set up would be compared to all the machining, caculating, matching, dialing in that is needed on a big turbo gas motor that makes 300+ horse

or just PM me if you don't want to reveal your secrets just yet

BTW i've always wondered why did brazil go alcohol in the '70's?

[1500SBR]

VWDMC I'm in the mood to chat!

I'll throw the idea to the friends bulding the kits, I'm not in the business (was in the 90's)...but TheSamba sounds like a good starting point. What I would like to do is spread the news, the knowledge and help you guys avoid the mistakes we made.

Like I said before, we came a long way. The turbo craze started in Brazil in the 80's, got really serious in the 90's, but we have recently mastered its use. Once you realize the fuel consumption needs, then its the higway to pleasure and free power. If the guy with the MASSIVE 3 liter spanks you with his 280hp screamer when you were running 15psi on that lazy wednesday night, you tell your engine builder, retard timming a little, step up 10 on your mains and simply bump the wind to 30psi and voila, you just made 100 and something free horses.

Do they explode? Yeah they do, but that's up to you (what I mean is that there is no black magic in them). Great part of the blowing up is due to lean conditions, and they are due to improper tuning. I've been doing this for the past 17 years and I threw more valvetrains in normally aspirated engines due to stupid driving tha thrown rods due to weak bottom ends in turbo engines. I've had a lot more demage done due to lean condition, but that is part of the past and in any case, they are usually nothing more than a burnt head gasket (watercooled VWs).

Alcohol is awesome, I urge you guys to switch, whenever you have it readily available. The engine stays much cleaner inside, that alone is a great advantage. It is incredibly cooler, I'm mean my bug runs 13:1 CR without an internal cooler only the 72 pass external with no fan, and the car never sees past 90 degrees. And obviously, more CR means more power.

Brazil went to alcohol in the 70s I think because of the great oil dependency we had, with the crisis and enough land to grow sugar cane, it was an obvious solution I guess. In the biggining the cars sucked, they did not have good cold start systems and the CR wasn't bumped up, so they were extremely hard to start (for a normal driver) and fuel consumption was terrible. Once compression was up and they developed automated cold start systems, the sales took off, to the point that in the late 80s, 98% of the new cars ran on alcohol. For some stupid reason the government abandoned the program in the 90s and we had some shortage then. Later when the market opened up, imported cars were solely gas and the factories stopped developing alcohol engine, so you had a surplus of the fuel, which was great for us. I remmenber having a 400hp daily driven Rabbit that cost half to run than my dad's 115hp Passat. Those days are gone though since recently the manufactures started building the flex fuel cars, which run on either fuel.

Regarding the parts and secrets, I'd be glad to list them here, but I don't want to clog your pages so, if it is of anyones interest, let me know.

Regards to all,
Marcelo

[dubKustom]

Hey, this thread is interesting

If we're talking reliability rather than max HP, lets say this engine you're talking about but with maybe 150-180 HP rather than 300? How reliable would you say such a setup would be, if used as a driver/fun road car rather than racing?

[1500SBR]

dubKustom,

Hello! Yeah its pretty cool heh? Well, like I said before (maybe not here), I fail to understand the reliability problems you guys complain and talk so much about, specially in the T1 motors. There are things that you have to correct in these engines which were things that in a high performance application didn't work, such as lack of oil filter, cooler right in front of 3rd cylinder and so on. We do not build fast engines to last 100.000 miles, that is just not something we worry about, specially because there are other things that happen during the life of the engine that ultimately makes you loose a few horses gradually and you would eventually tear down the engine to fix these things before that period anyways (such as that nasty black build up on the top of the piston which I don't know how you call it, or worn valve guides or pistons that shrunk - have you checked how much a forged piston shrinks after some hard driving and so on). So the engine gets old. Worn out, and it simply doesnot deliver the performance it should.

A properly tuned 300hp 1600 will last a long time, a 180hp one will probably last longer, but it doesn't matter how. I had a daily driven Rabbit with 400+hp for like 50.000, tore it down because it leaked oil everywhere. I replaced the rings (the leaks were due to excessive pressure in the sump due to ring leak down - the car did not use an air filter due to lack of space in this specific set up), replaced the gaskets and seals, and headed to another 50.000 miles, a friend still has the car, going strong after maybe 10 years of driving.

My point being, reliability is not a problem if properly tuned. Keep in mind that turbo engines have low static compression and easy-on-the-parts valvetrain, it is essentially a stock engine off-boost, so it will last a long time, much longer than a wild arse normally aspirated engine, when driven under the conditions you described.

On road racing applications the story is different because of heat build up. We have recently put together a road race Fox (remember the old ones made in Brazil, sold in the US, the ones you hated), the car has a conservative 300hp on 15psi and we are getting spanked by heat. Everything under the hood is melting, started, hoses, wastegates.....but we are learning, so I guess even in this case, once you learned how to cool the whole thing down, it will be ok. We went the whole last season on a STOCK engine (stock pistons and rods) running 270hp with the same boost and more fuel, just to understand how far a set of factory pistons and rods will go.

TO sum it up....careful when people say that this and that CAN"T take this or that....they usually can take a lot more than what people thing, but the problem is that usually there is something wrong elsewhere that prevents the whole thing from working properly. Additionally, people insist on building mega horsepower engines (180 on a bug is mega - factory is what 50?) using factory tolerances, oil pressures and volumes...things like that, those things play a maker role in reliability also....factory tolerances on a 8000rpm engine won't work.

So to answer you question....don't worry about reliability on your application, if tuned properly and a few things observed, it should outlast your paint job, wire harness, and definetely your tires.....

Best regards,
Marcelo

[dubKustom]

OK, I see your point... I don't know that much about VW engines, still in the process of learning, but what you're saying almost sounds a bit too good to be true
All the people I've spoken to, including a few drag racers in my club are basically saying that lots of HP in a Type1 engine will make it a lot less reliable. It seems to me (from what all these people tell me) that in making a high performance T1 engine you will either lose reliability or you have to spend a fortune on it, basically building a brand new engine with aftermarket parts... My long-term goal is to have a kustom Bug with a solid, high performance engine to use as a fun street/highway driver. But I don't want to get stuck on the road all the time, so I have considered swapping to a tuned Type 4 engine or an all-out conversion to a newer engine like a Mazda rotary.

I mean, if I could keep the "stock" engine, get good horsepower AND be sure to get home without a hassle, no one would be happier than me But until now that has seemed impossible.
Am I talking to the wrong people, like drag racers who will do anything to cut their 1/4 mile times, rather than building usable street engines?

Thanx/Daniel

[vwdmc16]

Hey 1500SBR

i'd like to know more details on the engine hardware for all-out and moderate power (130+/-HP), PM or Email me Ok?

[vwdmc16]

well our good buddy Marcelo has made the speech about how to get the power we've heard about, so here it is:


YOu asked for a run in the parts needed, that's a long answer question,
but we'll go in parts, you keep coming back with whatever I fail to
answer.

Keep in mind the following:

We had beetles here up until 1996 and aircooled Buses up until last year
(or this year, I don't care much for the new buses). This means two
things. I don't know if there were any changes, I can't tell you if the
96 brazilian engine is better than a 70 German one. I know it is newer
and that alone is a big difference. So even though both are STOCK
engines, the newer engine will be stronger (it will probably pass
magnaflux tests, while the other may not).

But lets say you are starting with a zero miles engine, completely
stock, these are the mods I feel are necessary:

OIL - External filter, high volume pump, external cooler (72 pass) with
scoop next to the tranny - no need for fan, unless you guys get higher
temperatures that Rio de Janeiro

Cooling - Fan shrould without oil cooler, all tin in good condition and
seals in place - You want the heat outside the engine bay, the engine
cannot recycle heat - A doghouse places the cooler outside the shrould,
but the friggin cooler is still in the bay, when you stop the heat
radiates around the bay and the fan sucks the heat - No open hoods
either. If you decide you need extra cooling in the bay, has to come
from the bottom of the car and from the front of the rear axles- any air
pick ups from the back of the axles to the back of the car has a higher
temperature on a running car.

IGNITION - obviously points won't work, anything electronic. In Brazil
we use electronic or Hal distributors with stock ignition boxes and
coils. MSD systems are not necessary, but you may not have access to a
Hal or factory electronic system and might want to use whatever you have
to eliminate points - Pertronix type of thing, I don't know, never used
it

Fuel delivery - Electric fuel pump that flows at least 1 gallon a minute
will work, must do so at at least 60psi. Pressure dependant fuel
regulator with a line returning to the tank (or before the pump pick up)
- pressure set at idle will be rougly 5psi and it must raise pressure in
the same rate of boost (with 15psi of boost you will then have 20psi of
fuel pressure - you will read this pressure after the regulator and
before the carburator) - If using carbs, you will need big float
needles.

Turbo Kit - there is a more common manifold where the tubes go up and
the turbo sits next to the alternator, don't use that one, there is a CB
Performance one where the turbo sits next to the crank pulley and they
remove the rear tin - don't use that one either - the ticket is a kit
where the turbo sits right above one of the axles, high enough to have
the oil from the turbo returning by gravity only - the reason to chosse
this manifold is to keep heat away from the engine bay - all tubes
should be thermally wrapped. Additionally, the up pipe should route to
the carbs in a T fashion (where it splits for both carbs, rather than a
Y fashion). Y seems better for flow, but in practical terms you may get
more airflow to one of the sides, while using a T, it is harder for this
to happen. Nobody uses an intercooler, but I would not put one together
without it....next to the tranny with a scoop

Turbo size - Depends on the application - exactly like a cam. Use a T2
style for up to 150hp, T3 style with AR .42 for the compressor for up to
300hp. Larger turbos, will only work with bigger engines or 8000rpm
screamers.
The exhaust side shold be a AR.36 or smaller for low hp applications and
AR.48 on the other ones - wheel size, I don't have the spec sheets with
me, can tell you later though if you get serious - regarding TRIM, we
don't have a choice of trim here (we do, but I'm not that sofisticated
and haven't gone into that - it makes a difference, but you are talkging
200rpms up or down and 5hp up or down) - To hell with TRIM.

Carbs - on a 150hp applicationn - Dual 32s. bigger carbs will make more
power, dual 40 or fuel injection better (can't really help you with
tuning the 32, cause I dont use them, can help you with the 40s and 44s)

Ok, basics layd down, now the variables. A stock motor described above
with 32s and a T2 should make in the neighborhood of 130hp with 15psi.
But it will spin past the stock springs capability, so you wanna have a
set of high performance single springs. Otherwise, rods, pistons and all
are safe.

Now when it comes to making more power (remember they make 300 on Fuel
injection, with 4 40mm throtles). The following is a list of things
that will help a lot.

Obviously the size of the throttles. dual Weber 40s will make a huge
difference, and you be able to step to a T3 turbo (more air volume on
the same boost level) without a enourmous amount of lag added. But when
you get there, higher revs are on the way. you need valvetrain upgrade -
pushrods, springs (single or dual if more than 6500), retainers, things
like that. Next would be large valves, 40X35.5, a 3 angle valve job and
mild port work. and next an Engle TCS 10 with the dual springs. The cam
could come before the valves, but then you would have split the case.

Remember, this is using stock rods and crank. You might have a problem
with the flywheel without the 8 dowell, but that will depend on your
driving. First time it comes loose you will have to step to the 8
dowell thingy.

Of course, the stock clutch can't take the weakest of turbo set ups.
Clutch you use whatever you have there. I normally run ceramic discs
with stock pressure plates, they vibrate while taking off a little, but
I get an original pedal feel, as oposed to start having problems because
of the added load on the pedal (mainly the hassle in traffic).

SO to answer you question in one line - 130 hp, all stock, with T2
turbo, single high rev springs on dual 32s (and no points) - More than
that, step to Weber 44s and a T3. To be safe (of the drivers mistakes)
upgraded valvetrain. Still want more, nice set of heads with mild ports
and 40X35.5 valves.

You can drop this at the thread. It will be nice to hear the
IMPOSSIBLE, NO CAN DO, EVERYTHING WILL BE FLYING comments....but unless
there is some type of magnetic field in Brazil that prevents the engines
from flying apart, that's how they work over here....eventually you get
to break something, but then again, the 45hp ones also break. It is not
uncommon to see the people here complain about reliability, but when you
look at their engines (don't even have to take them apart) you realise
the reliability problems come from the fact that they are using old
parts, bad assembled parts or a combination of both. Other thing I
wanted to tell you....we have a racing league here called Speed 1600 for
bugs. They run 14 inch stock rims (from Brasilia and SP2) with radial
tires. Some 5 degress of camber in the front and like 7 in the back,
roll cage and stock motors. You are allowed only to work on the 32s,
increase CR, some port and angle job, valve springs (I think) and the
use of a 4X2 header. The suckers make 110hp. 1600, stock cam, stock
heads, stock everything....they spin to 6000rpm. The only real problem
they have is that they leak so much oil that they have to be the last
category of the day or else the other guys complain about the dirty
track....true story.

Regards,
Marcelo


well there you have it people, so you can see it really isn't that hard but forgetting to beef up a simple parts or not putting the fuel delivery together right will make the motor go kaput

so will anybody here want to try this?

[Cam]

Yep, I'm game to give it a shot!
I'm putting together the bottom end of a 1600 as we speak. its tapped for full flow oil, has a windage tray etc...
I also have a T2 turbo and complete CIS injection system waiting to be chopped up and fitted on.
I'm interested to hear or see (if you have some pics) how you run all your oil lines to and from the cooler and turbocharger?

[1500SBR]

Cam,

Nice to hear you are up to....if I can help with anything else let me know.

Regarding the lines.
Oil cooler: I use a full flow pump cover: There are two nipples, one to the oil cooler then from the oil cooler to the other nipple. I'm not sure how people do it when running the lines from the case itself. Another option is to use the relocator that goes in the place of the original oil cooler (my car simply has a bypass cover type of thing there)

Turbo: You run a line from the oil pressure sender hole (using something that allows you to use both a nipple for the oil supply for the turbo - steel braided line and have a place to put the oil light switch). Back from the turbo, you can dump it anywhere as long as it is lower than the turbo, since it fall back by gravity (it is important the the line does not allow to form a puddle anywhere - do you know what I mean?) - some people dump it on the place where the original fuel pump used to be or on one of the valve covers....

I don't have pictures, but I hope I helped.....

Regards,
Marcelo