Ethanol in a VW motor

[vwdmc16]

So 1500SBR your saying that we need to keep every thing hot out of the engine compartment and put the turbo in front of the engine, how do you mount that? the header must be tricky, and would you have any issues withe the rear luggage tray and the heat? i'd rather keep the turbo next to the engine where it is easier to get at

[1500SBR]

VWDMC,

Yeah it is a tricky header, one which I haven't seen made as an actual kit. Here we have a lot of custom exhaust shops and the one I use has developed this system where the turbo sits right above the left axle. There is a little bit of cutting and fitting. To make space for the turbo in that location. I mentioned it is a nicer location because it does keep the heat out of the bay.

I included a few pictures so you guys have an idea.
Regards,
Marcelo

[1500SBR]

Picture of the trick manifold.....

Let me know what you guys think...

Take care

[vwdmc16]

you guys don't have any issues with the #3 exhaust pipe being so short and all unequal? and where does the external oil cooler go, 'cause usually us americans put it where that turbo is

[1500SBR]

No issue with the short 3rd cylinder (it is all under pressure anyhow). It does create some difference while you are off boost (theoretically - but unoticeable on lesser than extreme performance applications). If you still feel this is something you would like to fix. You can always re-route the 3rd cylinder tube.

The oil cooler will still fit next to the trasmission (I don't know wxactly how you guys mount it, but there is enough room for a 72 pass) or you can move it to the other side of the car. The header can also be made to mount the turbo on the right side.

Also, I haven't seen one, but I've taken measured and I'm sure you can make it fit. You run the oil cooler on one side and the charge cooler on the other side....

But you didn't tell me what you thought about the headers and all. Cool, not cool, crappy....I think this way to position the turbo is awesome, no comparison to the other methods...

Regards,
Marcelo

[Cam]

I like the idea of the turbo over the gearbox, however I was planning to mount mine behind the rear apron (behind the motor, under the tinware). I have seen a few VW's with this set-up and cant imagine the oil return should be too much of a problem, especially since its so close to the where the case is full flowed that the pressure should be there to stop the oil pooling. Be interested to hear if anyone has had experience mounting the turbo in the position.

[vwdmc16]

yeah i like the mounting, it's cool, but accessing it could be a little harder than a turbo undre the apron, but i guess you would'nt need to do much maintance on it, although i don't mind crawling under the car

So i looked up how hard it would be to get/make 180-190 proof fuel, and it would take a $400-500 still and alot of work to constanley make enough fuel, not to mention getting a permit and all that. sso what kinda power do you see possible woth E85 vs. pure alcohol, becuase that would be much easier to get although not cheaper in the long run.

[1500SBR]

Cam, I don't think you can fit the turbo under the rear tin, without removing it. If the turbo sits too low, you will need a scavenging tank for the oil return line (which has no pressure) and a scavenging pump. For the gravity to take care of the return line, the lowest part turbo has to be mounted above the oil level inside the pump otherwise it smokes under certain situations if not all the time.

VWDMC, I can't give you exact figures since we do not have E85, but from mixing regular Gas and Alcohol, which some people do, the results will probably be the same in terms of power. Less forgiving when it comes to ignition timing and a bit hotter, but nothing too significant. I wasn't suggesting you guys went after pure alcohol of methanol for this use. I was suggesting the use of E85 to begin with. I think it will probably even work better than Brazilian Hidrated alcohol, since water doesn't burn, it simply takes space in the combustion chamber. Gas on the other hand burns hotter than alcohol so a bit combined with alcohol must make a pretty good fuel. Without the hard start and with slight less specific consumption.

Regards,
Marcelo

[PJLOval]

Wow did this thread ever get hijacked! Yes you can run e-85 in a relatively stock bug engine. Replace all of the fuel lines and clean the tank real good. You will then have to Jet the carb(s) about 33 to 35% richer and reset the floats to accomadate the diference in fuel density. E-85 is about 105 Octaine. The timing needs to be advanced as well. More compression wouldn't hurt if you want to build an engine to use it. The only problem we have here in Texas is that e-85 still cost too much and the 33% loss in MPG doesn't justify the 18% decrease from Super Unleaded.

[1500SBR]

PjlOval, What do you mean by highjacked? in the beggining we talked about being no advantages to using E85 unless you build a high compression engine for it or it is turbocharged. From my experience 35% richening is too much even for pure alcoohol, so with e85 it is way too rich. THere is also the corrosion issue (it is bad). How much does a gallon of E85 cost? Here a gallon of gasoline is US$4,18 and a gallon of alcoohol is US$2,09. It is not that more compression wouldn't hurt, it is needed. Timming is only advanced if you do not have the compression....a correct alcohol engine requires different timming from a gas engine, not simply more...the curve is different.
Differences sum up as: corrosion on all parts in contact with fuel...tank, pump, lines, and specially the carbs. Different jets, e-tubes, float needles. Different timing. Higher compression ratio. Some manufactures change cam profile (because the car behaves differently and they want to fix that - I'm ot suggesting you have to swap cams, I'm illustrating how different it is). Smaller venturis. No polishing of manifolds and heads or rather a different finish then the one you are used to. cold start system required depending on weather....

[matara]

1500SBR, Your turbo setup sounds similar to my setup. I have a kit that a respected Australian VW mechanic setup that mounts the turbo on the passenger (RHD) side of the gearbox. The intercooler sits the other side, and feeds back to a Weber 32/34 DMTT carb setup for blow-through. The turbo gets its oil from the pressure switch via a T, and the return goes back to the passenger side Valve cover. The kit has a distributor that limits advance travel, and it is setup to work with a basically stock motor. Stock heads, stock crank, you just put a rising rate regulator, fuel pump, and bigger Pistons and Barrells and drop compression etc, and it is designed to only rev to 4500 rpm. This setup was driven 600 miles to a run, did a pass of a 14.2 secs with an 1835 setup, and drove the 600 miles back home.

Here is a pic of the headers and the setup as seen in the engine bay.





Interestingly, petrol manufacturers over in Australia, are now blending ethanol into petrol between 10% and 30%.

Good to see that the kit has some proven heritage.

Cheers

Steve

[1500SBR]

Hey Steve,

Awesome..14s reving 4500, that is really cool. I really like your setup, it is so clean and the single dual throat carb eliminates some of the duals hassles...

I guess ethanol will slowly replace gasoline...and that is a good thing. being forgiving with turbos, I also guess that is the future of internal combustion engines....good for us!

Regards,

Marcelo

[EvilAngel]

Hi guys, regarding cam's post about turbo under the rear tin, cb's got a turbo kit that actually does that. I dont know about the exact install details, but you can check that out, too.

[vwdmc16]

Any updates peoples?

[1500SBR]

Dubkustom, I sent you a couple of messages but they came back, in any case I put together a list of things I could remember regarding the ethanol conversion. Hope it helps. If I can help in any other way, let me know.

I'm not a chemical engineer, the VWs are mostly a hobby, so I can talk about my experience and along with it I'll tell you a bit of the story so you understand.

In Brazil we have a blend of ethanol which is called hydrated alcohol. I don't know how it compares to E85 in terms of corrosion potential. Ours is probably more corrosive since it has water added to it.

It started in Brazil around the mid seventies. At first the cars were troublesome and worst in every way. Slower, worse mileage and so forth. Corrosion was also a problem.

They got better along the way.

So, regarding corrosion. It attacks every part that is in contact with it, but it is really serious in the carbs. Meaning that if you leave everything alone (and parts of it, there isn’t much you can do, like the gas tank for instance), except for the carbs, you should be fine for a long time. All the Brazilian cars started having corrosion protected fuel systems around the 90s, even the gasoline fed cars.

There were factory alcohol beetles, but I could not supply you a list of alcohol specific parts, except for which I remember, the carbs were specific, the pistons and the heads (for compression ratio reasons).

My car is converted and the following is a what I know about using hydrated alcohol to run the cars (it applies to everyone)

Gas tank: There isn’t anything you can do with the factory tank. If the tank is in top condition, corrosion will show its face after many, many years. It is not a problem though. Later the cars started using plastic tanks. The beetle never had a factory plastic tank but there are some companies making them today. My car does not have one.

Lines and connections: Regular rubber hoses and copper fittings. Since there is less oxygen in contact with them (when the alcohol dries, which it never happens in the lines), corrosion and oxidation does not take place.

Fuel pump: It has to be nickel plated (factory ones were like that)…or some other sort of corrosion resistant plating. However if they are not like that, they will show signs of corrosion after some time, you would be able to run a normal pump for a long time. An option is to use a modern EFI pump with a fuel regulator. My car has an EFI pump from a Opel Kadett. They last a long time if the cars is in constant use (constant in the context of the subject is at least 3 times a week)

Carbs: Likewise nickel plated. It will work without plating if you drive constantly. Allowing it to sit will produce a gel in the carbs that clogs up everything. Eventually it will fall victim of corrosion itself. My carbs are nickel plated. Simply took them completely apart and had them plated at a local chemical shop. The brass and copper parts are not plated, like the throttle plates, needles, jets and so forth. Just the casting.

SO in other words, for a daily (I mean daily) driver, if you re-jet they run, and eventually you will see corrosion after a couple or years depending on the condition of things. If you do not drive it as often as 3 times a week, you will see constant clogged carbs. If you nickel plate the carbs, you will see years of trouble free use as long as you drive at least once a week or so. Eventually other things will corrode, like the pump.

Modifications to the rest: The engine needs a higher compression ratio to fully use the potential of alcohol. Ranging from 10.5 to 1 on a factory 1600 beetle to 14.5 to 1 on my engine for example. What determines that is basically how much cam you have in the engine. Consider 10 for a factory cam and 14 for the wildest cams currently available. I run a 313 degree Engle.

It needs a different timing curve. There is less initial advance and less final and the range is a bit narrower. There is some modification needed to adjust how much advance the distributor will have. Timing is dependant on what you run on the rest of the engine, cam, CR, size of the carbs, how rich or lean you like to run the car. My car runs 14 initial and 32 final, if it ran on gas (and had a considerably lower CR – like 9,5 or 10 max) it would probably see something like 16/40. Rule of thumb is to watch head temp and knock. You might want to play with it a little.

And finally, it needs more fuel. Roughly 30% more. It is good (depending on engine performance it is essential) to step up to bigger float needles. Factory being 150 you would need at least a 220 or bigger. I run 300s on my Weber 44s. And a fuel pressure of 0.4 bar. A factory pump won’t provide that much. So the EFI pump is needed on hotter applications.

Iddles are bigger and main jets as well along with less air correction.
The emulsion tubes are also different, as well as the venturis. Original Weber 44s comes with 36mm venturis. I run 34 venturis. The smaller the easier the car will be to tune, the larger the more power (up to a certain level) you will make if the rest is right. There is very little change in my car while running 36 venturis, but it does make more power and loses some drivability.

Emulsion tubes are richer, usually simply by being of smaller diameter and allowing more space and therefore more way for fuel. I use F3 in my Webers instead of the original F11. They are identical, except a few mms skinnier on the outside (maybe two, I cannot remember right now)

Just to give you a ball park: I run 90 idles, 170 fuel, 170 air. If it was gas, it would be 60 idles, 140 fuel, 200 air. Something like that. Since air and mains have interference on band, from 3000rpm up to 5500 is mains and from that on is air (and up to 2500/3000 is idle), it is really a matter of what the engine has in terms of equipment. My advice is increase idle and mains by 30% and start by running the engine only up to 2500rpms, get the idles roughly correct (allow longer time for the engine to warm up though), then step up the revs, running from 2500 to 5000. add and subtract in increments of 5. Then use the whole band and play with air. It has to run flawlessly, if it does’nt, it is not done.

My setup allows for a slightly rich idle and not so rich top band. I think this provides crisp response and yet is lean enough to wind up to 7300rpms. If I run richer in the whole band with alcohol, like a gasoline engine would allow, it doesn’t seem to like the revs that much. Alcohol doesn’t like rich that much.

Oh, last thing, spark plugs, should be colder. While a gasoline would use NGK EGV 5 or 6 (depending on original or hopped up), you can run EGV 7, 8 or even 9 (10 also) on an alcohol engine. I run 7. No change in running colder than that. If it was a turbo application, the colder the better.

One more, filters should be plastic or stainless steel, not the regular metal ones (corrosion again). Generally where you can opt for plastic or rubber or stainless steel, go for it.

I hope this covers most of it. Please feel free to contact me at any time regarding this and other matters.

Enjoy!
Regards, Marcelo