Longevity of High Output Motors

[volkdent]

Hey All! Here's a good place to let us know how long your High Output motors run before they need some major tweaking(read $). Let us know how much you spent, how hard and far you drive it, and how many miles you've laid down before you've needed something major done. Regular maintenance aside, so adjusting the valves, new points, oil change and plugs are not counted. For those with small diameter front tires, round down because your speedo says you've put on more miles than you actually have.

If all answer truthfully, we can get a rough idea how far a HO motor will go for the $.

[rip]

My vote goes toward the water conversion. Though you spend time routing water lines; the power is going to be more reliable as it is not stressed, it's stock. Stock rebuilds will be easier than designing a engine, cheaper too especially if you don't have the experience.

I'd go with a 13b rotary conversion, and a small turbo. This will be fast and though rotarys are not thought of as reliable; it will last 100,000 miles under boost, and give you a stock 9g rev limit. Probably looking in the range of 200hp with only three moving parts. Plus it seems easier, don't have to worry about losing parts because of break ins, lifters, capatablity of parts (as they're mostly stock), and if you want the frist one can be pulled from a junk yard.

But one serious down fall to a water conversion using a newer engine, the rebuild will be expensive. In the case of the rotary you'll pay a good 800 bucks on "okay" apex seals, and be looking at 450 bucks for a rotor housing (though these are not replaced on every build; apex seals should be). But you don't have to think as much, don't worry so much about internals working together (cam durations, timing, lift, right piston size), but more so the externals, turbos, timers, bov's, fuel injection, and stuff easily accessable too.

You sort of leave one set of problems for another, question is which do you feel more confortable dealling with. And which are easier to fix, replacment water pumps, or rebuilt turbos are easier than new cams and cranks.

http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions

If you don't already know theres some good info there on most conversions. Frankly if I hadn't put the money and time into the type IV I'd be getting a 13b. Also before you spend money, find a few forums, not just VW ones. I vist the Rx7club.com nice forum there, with plenty of inteligent people. I think I saw Shad Laws there a while back too. That's why I got the Rx7 brakes, stated looking there for engine info, and fell in love with the stock 4 pot brakes that are on these cars.

easy
rip

[Massive Type IV]

My recommendation for a "Freshening up" of an aircooled Performance engine comes at 80K miles. Note that this is SCHEDULED MAINTENANCE and the engine more than likely will not HAVE to receive it.

I have many 150HP 2270s alive for 80-100K and still going strong.

It all in the combo!

[volkdent]

Hey Jake,

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad that you underscore a reliable motor. Buiders that talk about a 200hp type I motor that will be reliable are liars whether they know it or not. A 150hp type IV sounds just about right for the long haul. I would do that if I was staying air cooled. Just out of curiousity, what would that motor cost as a turn key?

Jason

[zen]

while i debated many options during the build of my bug, i went HO air to help keep the hobby alive. i built a bug because i wanted a bug and all of the things that come with the aircooled family. i went TIV for torque and long term reliability.

i see absolutely nothing wrong with the other options. they all have their pros and cons. mine was purely a decision of staying true to aircooled for that car. now my T3 Vanagon is another thing. not sure yet what direction i will go there. it is a budget beater project so the "deal" will greatly determine the result. thinking EJ25 or EJ22 Subaru conversion though. rotary is appealing just for something different for me. not a great torque engine for a van though.

[oicdn]

I've seen old school mini's with a Suzuki Hayabusa motor....200 stock hp.....15,000 rpm redline....sky's the limit for turbo and aftermarket parts for it. It's like the Civic of the motorcycle world....turbo those motors push some NASTY numbers....

[volkdent]

Bump! Need more info and stories!

[rustbucket]

Speaking of the 'Busa conversion, I have a friend who is currently working on putting a GSXR1100 engine in a Fiat 500. Pretty trick. I'll let you know how it turns out.

As far as longevity, I think you hit on an important point. The issue is how much HP am I happy with, and what engine can meet that criteria without over working it. Certainly you can build a T1 or T4 for 500HP, but it won't last long. A Suby would be better suited, if not a SBC.

If you're looking for ~150HP, The T4 would be my choice.
If you want <125HP, a well built T1 will do.
More than 200HP, I'd look at water cooled conversions.

That would be my guideline just from several thousand hours of reading other people's experiences online. Of course, if money isn't an issue, throw all of that out the window.

[volkdent]

Bump, keep it coming! Would you guys that are posting also tell us how long you've been in the VW scene for? I think that time might equal experience, so I'm curious what people who've been doing this for a long time think.

Jason

[lazylongboarder]

The best bang for the buck in my book are the newer ecotec motors. You can buy the motors with 10,000-20,000 miles for $250-$400, stock hp is 140, w/computer 170, N/A with mods and computer 225, Turbo with stock internals up to 380, Turbo with internals... anything up to 1390 (thirteen hundred and ninety) hp! My friend has 18,000 miles on a turbo stock internaled 2.2 cavalier with a T3/T4 with 350 hp @ i think 15 lbs of boost. Power and reliability. $2500 for motor, computer, turbo, and adapter.

[oicdn]

^^ Hahaha, the problem with a a cavalier is though...is it's HEAVY AS HELL....I think around like 3400lbs heavy. Holy hell, a G35 and other LUXURY cars weigh that much and have a huge V8 or V6 in there with tons of other leather heavy interior crap.....

Been there, done that.

Also, that rear suspension SUCKS. He'll have ALOT of catching up to do to match what the beetle has to offer.

I would also like to see where an ECU gives 30HP on a stock motor. Not to burst your bubble, but those HP numbers are a bit inflated. It's a great motor, sure, but meh, There's better performance out there for less money. Yeah, the motor is cheap, but the fact you have to fabricate to get it in, just so you have 140HP of electrical GM headaches, is not worth it to me. You have to spend another $1500 on fabrications to get 140HP...then on top of that, the mods to get the motor in the high HP area....not worth it. In the end you just spent a ton of money when you coulda got either a Type 4, a Porsche conversion, or a Subaru conversion.....started out with a higher BASE HP and a bigger aftermarket. And well, you'de end up spending all that money on fab, why not get something that works out better in the long-run...


....I dunno, I don't think I'de want a GM product in my dub...

[Wally]

Strange poll; too many variables to make viable statements.

F.i.: I don't want a watercooled engine in my aircooeld VW! But a stock 200 hp Subaru will always have a longer life than any tuned aircooled engine that started out as a 50 hp (type 1) or a 100hp (type 4) engine...Duh!

Most bang for the buck is not my or most peoples goal. Than everybody would have a watercooled conversion in their car...

Oh, I drive tuned beetles for 20 years and 18 of that with type 4's in my bug (and type 3's). I have never broke any engine, or took it apart because it needed an overhaul or s/th like that. They always came apart because I wanted to improve them or make them faster or both so I really can't say anything on your poll

Best regards,
Walter

[volkdent]

Bump, keep em coming.

[cnavarro]

I'm with Wally, most guys aren't looking for bang for the buck. You can easily afford weight wise a heavier engine that makes more HP and handle the tradeoff that 15hp is needed for every extra 100lbs.

One of Jake's 2270's is the perfect balance of performance and longevity. Anything more and you need to start shelling out big bucks for longevity and reliability (i.e. Nickies).

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

[Massive Type IV]

Last night the 3.0 turned 9000 miles since it's birth in March 05.....

I cahnged the oil when it came off the dyno, but not since it was installed in the car.... (trying to promote wear)

It hasn't used but a tad over 1 quart of oil over the 9K span its been in the car... I average 75 MPH on the highway at 25-27 MPG...... Engine produces 196HP to the rear wheels and 235@ the flywheel at only 5500 RPM....

The longevity of a correctly configured and assembled engine isn't a damn bit less than a stocker -- Do something wrong, mess up the combo or run it lean and things drastically change.