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  #1  
Old January 29th 2005, 01:44
mattfaulkner mattfaulkner is offline
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Super Suspension vs. Standard Weight

Hey everybody. I'm new to posting here, but I've been reading for a while. I'm very intrigued by the idea of making a type 1 outrun and outhandle a good handful of modern sports cars. I'm looking to get started, and I'm debating whether a standard or a super would be better. I've searched for information regarding this topic, but I haven't really found anything.

I've researched that a standard beetle weighs 198 lbs less than a super beetle. Now, would this difference in weight override any suspension advantage the super may have over the standard. As you all know, weight is a huge deal. At 198 lbs less weight, the standard will not only beat the super in the straightaways, but will also have less weight to lug around the turns. So...will this weight advantage be enough to cancel out any advantage the McPherson strut may have had? What do you guys think?

I'm tempted to say that a standard with independent rear and sway bars (though this would add some weight), would beat the super.

Matt F.
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  #2  
Old January 29th 2005, 14:54
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i drive a standard, but the super is a better performing car all other things being equal. the weight is a factor, but the suspension is a bigger one. go super if you can. nothing wrong with a standard though. mine will spank most in the straights and turns.
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  #3  
Old February 2nd 2005, 17:17
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There is a 99 pound difference between a standard and Super of the same year.
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Old February 2nd 2005, 17:53
mattfaulkner mattfaulkner is offline
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Oh...I didn't think standards varied in weight that much. Maybe my figure I got of the samba was wrong too. Well, 99 pounds is a lot less than 200. If that's the case, the super is looking better.

Matt F.
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  #5  
Old February 2nd 2005, 19:09
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Smile

The weight difference is debatable, I've seen it listed as, from 100 to 500 pounds.

I am very biased here but I know for a fact that the Super will out do a Standard in handling. When I was in high school, me and my best friend both had Bugs that were set up exactly the same. Mine was a 1973 Super, his was a 1974 Standard. We both had stock motors and a lowered suspension with aluminum wheels and 195/50R15 tires. My car would literally leave him behind by 3 to 4 car lengths in the corners and the smaller turning radius of the Super made it easier to maneuver overall. We would even switch drivers and get the same results.

The other factors to consider are... that the Standard has a wider rear track (like almost all pre-70's cars) and the Super has a wider front track (like all post-70's cars). The Super has struts (like 99% of modern car designs) and the Standard has torsion bars (0% of modern car designs).

I've said it many times before, the Standard is a great car for straight-line drag racing and the Super was made for autocross/corners.
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Old February 2nd 2005, 19:12
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Opps, forgot to mention the best part... the Porsche 924/944 suspension was designed based on the Super's suspension, that should tell you something there. That's also why the 944 brakes are so easy to adapt to the Super.
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Old February 2nd 2005, 20:14
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matt that extra weight hurts in straight line performance but I actually
like it for handling performance...makes the car feel beefier in the turns
and not so fly away like an early standard...


I have a super for German Look and a standard for drag racing
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  #8  
Old February 2nd 2005, 22:02
mattfaulkner mattfaulkner is offline
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Okay...here's something else. I've seen some guys running a coilover type setup on their standard beetles. I think turbonutta has them. Basically, it's just a spring mounted around the normal sized standard shock. I assume this gets rid of the torsion bars up front, and gives the car a semi-coilover suspension option. Anyway, would this set up, with an independent rear, beat a super? I'm not trying to defend the standard, just trying to look at all the options.

Superman: Those are some good points. I wish we had more head to head tests to go from.

Last edited by mattfaulkner; February 2nd 2005 at 22:06.
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Old February 2nd 2005, 22:04
mattfaulkner mattfaulkner is offline
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Yeah, here's the picture. I hope the link works.

http://www.germanlook.com/Forums/att...achmentid=1224
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  #10  
Old February 2nd 2005, 22:39
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>Standard has torsion bars (0% of modern car designs).<

Hey now the 911 had torsion fronts until '89!... If it is considered a modern design, which is debatable in ways.

Or trucks! Lots of new heavy duty trucks still use torsion bar front ends... i think because it is the only way to handle really heavy load capacities.

As for the real question, I do not have a good answer either way.
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Old February 2nd 2005, 22:41
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hey dude i agree with vujade about the weight advantage in the corners. as far as straight line build a good strong engine with nitrous so if you plan to do some light to light its there when you need it .you know, the best of both worlds. the car handles in the turns, gets out of the corner pretty well and will suprise most if not all pretty fast street cars at the light. you dont have to win a drag race to get the respect you need/deserve , sometimes one good purge of the juice will scare away any would be threats .
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  #12  
Old February 2nd 2005, 22:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattfaulkner
I'm not trying to defend the standard, just trying to look at all the options.
There is nothing wrong with looking into things and having a well planned project, that is the right thing to do.

There are several "debate" posts (here, STF, Samba, etc.) about the Super vs. Standard... but the [hard] thing to do [for an inexperienced reader] is to know what is fact and what is opinion.

Those "coil-over" shocks for the Standard aid the torsion bar front end, if I am correct because I've never really looked into that too much (being a "Super" kind of guy).


Basically, it doesn't matter what you do to the Standard front end, unless you widen the (front) track and decrease the turning radius, it will never be able to do what a Super does. This could be done with some wheel hubs and/or spacers plus a 'dune-buggy' type R&P steering rack.

Now let me close with this... I've watched many Käfer Cup videos and seen some Standards out race some Supers. Let's just say that "a Standard may not be able to out perform a Super (suspension wise), but it can be pretty darn close when the Standard's suspension is set up correct".
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Old February 2nd 2005, 22:51
Superman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillow
Hey now the 911 had torsion fronts until '89!... If it is considered a modern design, which is debatable in ways.
The Porsche company tried real hard to hold on to the legacy (Dr. Porsche designed and invented the torsion bar).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillow
Or trucks! Lots of new heavy duty trucks still use torsion bar front ends... i think because it is the only way to handle really heavy load capacities.
Yes, my comments were specific to cars. Trucks are made to haul loads, not take corners.
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  #14  
Old February 2nd 2005, 23:42
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there is one setup for replacing the torsion bars on a standard
with a freemoving bar and coil overs in replacement of the stock
shocks... Alex was going to use this kit on his Split...

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  #15  
Old February 3rd 2005, 00:43
mattfaulkner mattfaulkner is offline
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure that coilover kit lets the springs do 100% of the work. No torsion bar. Are the shock towers strong enough for it though? I guess a cross brace would fix it. It looks like we need a showdown. Here's how I think each car would be set up.

The super:
-High performance struts (Maxx struts?)
-Bigger sway bar(front)

The standard:
-Independent rear (exactly like the super)
-The front coilover kit shown above
-Front sway bar
-wheel spacers (to match the track width of the super)

Is there anything I forgot? I know that more could be done to the rear. However, it shouldn't matter as long as there equal. The purpose of this test would be to compare fully modified versions of each of the two front suspensions, so equal tire sizes should be used. I think this shootout would be REALLY close. The suspension geometry may be a little better on the super at this point, but the standard would still have the weight advantage, and coilovers now.

Also, I noticed some comments on how the extra weight of the super made it feel better (less floaty) in the corners. Isn't this a downforce issue? Is there a way to get enough downforce on these cars to take the floatiness away...even in the most extremely weight reduced beetles, standard or super?

By the way, I'm really enjoying everyone's feedback concerning this topic. This has been very imformative for me so far. Thanks guys!!! I hope we can get to the bottom of this.
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