Which suspension works best?

[DORIGTT]

Let's say I have a choice of building a Super Beetle (1302 or 1303 for those not in the USA) or a Standard Beetle with balljoint front and IRS rear suspension. Which works better for street/autocross/time trial/race etc?

The Porsche 356 does well I imagine on the track with essentially the same suspension up front as the Standard Beetle. The Porsche 911 uses a similar front set-up to the Super Beetle (1302 & 1303) and obviously works very well.

Which way to go and why for a vehicle project?

I now open the floor....

[Shad Laws]

Hello-

Let's say I have a choice of building a Super Beetle (1302 or 1303 for those not in the USA) or a Standard Beetle with balljoint front and IRS rear suspension. Which works better for street/autocross/time trial/race etc?

Tuned properly, the MacPherson strut suspension kicks *** over the twin trailing arm garbage (with unequal-length tie rods to boot!).


The Porsche 356 does well I imagine on the track with essentially the same suspension up front as the Standard Beetle.

Porsche was awfully quick to drop both the crappy twin trailing arm front suspension and the even crappier rear swingaxle system like lead weights when the big 901 redesign came around. It wasn't even a thought in their mind to keep them... they are quite poor compared to more "modern" (i.e. not even all that modern) designs.


The Porsche 911 uses a similar front set-up to the Super Beetle (1302 & 1303) and obviously works very well.

Yes indeed! It still isn't the absolute best, but it's a big step in the right direction.

I keep threatening to rip out my T3 front suspension... I hate it... I spy with my little eye an early 928 with 944-like front brakes to keep...

Take care,

[Aurumen]

I'm kind of biased. My autocross car is a Standard beetle. I love it. The simplicity of it is amazing and it's very very strong! My other car had mcpherson struts and I didn't like them. It seemed like there were too many parts to wear out on em, especially bushings.

I vote for simplicity! If these front ends last during off road abuse, me hitting a few little bumps on the autocross course ain't gonna mess anything up

Nick

[Sandeep]

I can't comment yet .. I haven't ridden in a super bug, let alone driven one on a course of any sort.

My BJ front end bounces around corners when I take them fast .. this could be due to my worn out front shocks and 'too wide a tire for the rim' front tires.

When I get some decent front and rear shocks and proper width tire for the rim, I should have a better idea.

The Strut front suspension is definately better .. (how many modern cars have a trailing arm front suspension like a standard ?). I believe the reason many people favor the BJ front end is due to the weight of the super bug .. supers are heavier for sure and I'm not sure everyone has the budget to really lighten a super.

The ideal solution in my mind is a standard beetle (weight-wise) with an A-arm front suspension that is bolt on.

Just my thoughts.

Sandeep

[Aurumen]

I'm pretty sure that most car companies when to Macpherson front suspensions because they take up less space. The really cool cars now and days have crazy double wishbone or double a-arm suspension. I'm sure a properly tuned Mac front end probably is very very good, but I don't think that the double trailing arm suspension of the standard is half bad either

Yeah, mine doesn't bounce at all...it rides smoothe with my koni's up front. So I think you need to invest in some shocks I even preloaded the upper and lower beam a little to increase the front end stiffness and it doesn't bounce.

nick

[Eurolook71]

I'll open a can-o-worms...


Some say that the super suspension is terrible. Sure is, when the rubber bushings are 30+ years old and you get mad wobbles, so a lot of vw guys dont even consider a super a real VW. (you guys know who I'm talking about, I'm sure you've meet a few at shows/meetings )

Take that same setup, put in some new bushings, (INCLUDING that $50 idler arm bushing!!), replace steering dampner, ball joints, tie rod ends, check for straight tie rods, bigger sway bar, coil-overs, etc, etc, etc,..

Then you gotta great handling Super!! I'm a hardcore Super fan :silly: , thats all I ever owned. (my first was a 72, then I gotta 71)

Many here will agree that the 73 1/2 with the 2-bolt setup is better than the vertical 3-bolt. I cant dare compare, I've never driven (test, you might say) a 71 with a fresh suspension, then went over and hoped in a 73+ with new components, and did the same thing. Also, some swear buy the rack and pinion. i, might agree...sure these components are more modern, you see them on new vehicles today, so there may be some truth there, but I'm plenty happy with my 71....this was the can of worms btw!!

Any way, I have no idea what a standard bug rides like, never drove one...come to think about it, I think I've only riden in 1..ever!! (jeez, weird thought...)

So there's all my jabber...(did i get off subject?)....I'l talk up a Super beetle any day over a STD. Not that I dont like a std, I LOVE all VWs!!!!

[Supa Ninja]

I've driven a friends '66 cal looker around some corners at a resonable speed and was a lil scared. I've driven a bone stock '74 and the same thing.
Now I've done everything to my '72 1302 that Eurolook71 recommends including the 50 buck idler arm bushing and my opinion is that the 1302 feels better in the corners than my 914. I still haven't barely touched the rear suspension yet so we'll see after I stuff in the 944 goodies. My vote is for the Supa's. GL4LIFE

Nick

[Shad Laws]

Hello-

I'm pretty sure that most car companies when to Macpherson front suspensions because they take up less space.

Not necessarily true. They don't consume much vertical space, but they consume a ton of vertical space. This makes it work very well in some instances (like the fronts of an FWD car with a transverse, inline engine) and very ****ty in others (like an F1 racer that's as tall as your knee, or an FWD car with an engine with a narrow bottom and tall top, like a big 928 longitudinal V8).

The really cool cars now and days have crazy double wishbone or double a-arm suspension.

Not all of them... they consume too much horizontal space for some applications.


I'm sure a properly tuned Mac front end probably is very very good, but I don't think that the double trailing arm suspension of the standard is half bad either

Well... if it was worth half a sh!t, Porsche wouldn't have dropped it like a ton of lead when they went into project 901 in the early 1960's.

The roll center is at infinity. You have NO camber compensation... when your car rolls into a turn, your wheels don't do anything to help you out.

The tie rods are of unequal length, so bump steer is a major issue (yes, you can tune it out for a set of very specific conditions, but they aren't very applicable to real driving with good handling and turning). You can make a new steering system, but the lack of a roll center STILL makes it impossible to completely eliminate bump steer.

The wheel moves longitudinally a notable amount as the wheel goes up and down.

These are all very bad points... things that individually are nearly crimeworthy to design into modern suspension system, yet the VW setup has every one.

Take care,

[Aurumen]

Shad,

yer the big engineer here, so I am not going to argue with most of your points because I'm sure you'll know 10 more circumstances to back up your claims. (I'm an engineer too, just not too many discussions about water treatment around here..hehe).

All I know is what I've driven in autocrosses. And thus far, my standard beetle is my favorite car to autocross. I love its handling and like I said before, it's simplicity. I've autocrossed several strut equipped cars and even tinkered with their suspension a lot, and I'm more impressed with the toughness of the front end of my beetle. I slapped on a swaybar, a koni shock, and adjusted my camber to -1.75 and the car handles very well and is very predictable. No strut car I have driven has felt this good on stock springs (although when I bought the car, it did have adjusters on the beam already).

Now if someone could just teach me to drive, I might bring home some wood from the races..hehe

Nick