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  #31  
Old August 7th 2007, 21:02
alt+f4 alt+f4 is offline
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What brand and model are those Pete? How much further out you think you need to space it?


Also......Tell me about your sway bar setup!!!!!! Looks interesting!
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  #32  
Old August 7th 2007, 21:44
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Ditto on the setup, very nice from what you have shown us.

What spring rates are you running in the front and rear, what type of compression/rebound settings are on those struts and are they adjustable..

Laslty I believe the rear 944 utilize 14mm bolts while most coilovers are 1/2 bolts.. At least that is what I have come across during my reading of rear coilovers..

Maybe something like this will help, http://www.paragon-products.com/product_p/re_mc7000.htm

I have seen something else that is similiar on some 944 site, because some racer, had the same situation, just can't remembe right now.. and my computer at works history gets wiped everyday..
Alex
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  #33  
Old August 7th 2007, 23:37
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I bought this bug as a project from Alex that had to let it go a few years ago. Most of the car came in boxes. The parts that were on the car are either hand tightened, or missing some of its fastners. So i'm going over everything.

From what i know they are 944T AL arms with Bilstein/Eibach coilovers and Remmele Uniball springplates. I don't know the details of the springrates. The bolt is pretty tight in the eyelet of the bottom mount. No play. I'll make sure its a 14mm hole and 14mm bolt. It was bolted so the "ball" inside the eyelet couldn't rotate/twist because of the spacer and bolt/washer that's around it. So i'll make some spacers with a small outer diameter and install them on the sides, then the bolt and spacer. This should allow the bottom mount to move freely.

This bottom bolt goes in about 1inch inside the arm before hitting a thread. The threads on the bolt that i pulled are terrible. Looks like it was fastened without everything lined up, and loaded, so it's crossthreaded.

Is the thread in the 944AL arm M14 x 1.5? M14 x 1.75? or is it something else? I will have to get new bolts and run a tap through them, and hope they are ok.

I took it apart to see if i can space the bottom of the coilover further away from the arm. If i don't, then i can't adjust the coilover lower as the springs and perch interfere with the arm. Not allowing it to be unscrewed lower. There is no motor in the car, and i don't think it will drop 4inches with the engine it to bring it to a decent ride height without looking like a 4x4. Figure i need to come out another inch so the arm doesn't touch the coilover.

The rear swaybar doesn't look right to me as i see nowhere that the ends can mount to. I believe Alex had said the swaybar was a modified 928 bar. Some guy on the net made it. I have no details on it. I was thinking of cutting it out and installing a generic Bugpack IRS bar as i have in my super.
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  #34  
Old August 8th 2007, 00:05
alt+f4 alt+f4 is offline
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If you take some pics of the sway bar stuff maybe we can put our collective together and figure out the sway bar.....to bad Ars to just ditch!



Looks like you might lose a inch or 2 without the helper spring...is it rated?
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  #35  
Old August 8th 2007, 03:35
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Hi

I think I would be worried re tapping those holes and putting all that load on them. Maybe look into drilling all the way through and putting nut & bolt in place of the bolt.

Steve
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  #36  
Old August 8th 2007, 03:59
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I'll get some numbers off the springs tomorrow. What is the purpose of the dual spring setup? Pulling the bottom one out should get me to where i want.

What is turning me off of the swaybar is the way its mounted/welded off of the torsion tubes. Its mounts extend way below the pan and look way out of place.

I'll have to investigate the bolt and arm issue further.
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  #37  
Old August 8th 2007, 21:44
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Here is a better pic of that rear lower adapter for 1/2 coilovers..

I will check my manual as I don't remember the size..
A
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  #38  
Old August 8th 2007, 23:02
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I believe its for ride comfort. the small spring has a really small rating, and is used for small light loads, but when you really get into working the suspension it fully compresses and the main springs take over. I don't know if it has any performance benefits.
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  #39  
Old August 9th 2007, 04:38
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I measured the bottom mounting hole of the shock at 14mm. The bolt itself is a M14 x 1.5 and i've chased it with a die. I don't think i'll use it again. The AL arm has a steel sleeve pressed in. The threads on both arms look bad on the inside.

I can run a M14 x 1.5 Tap through it if its suppose to be it. Then if i can't get some decent threads in it, i'll have to go with a bigger bolt and tap the arm larger to probably a M16. Then machine the head off of it, turn it down to 14mm, toss a thread on it and nut the end. Another option is to do what Steve C mentioned above, drill it right through, machine a face on it so a nut will fall square on it. Or get new arms.

Alex, do you know what it the thread on the inside on the arm? If its M14 x 1.25 or M14 x 1.75, that would explain the M14 x 1.5 bolt stripping it out.

The springs are marked,

Top black,
Eibach 41/99
ERS 140-60-120

Bottom Red
Eibach 27/98
ERS 40-60-55

How do we know the springrates?

alt+f4, noticed today the red bottom spring is softer as its the only one that moved when lifting the car to pull the other side apart. So what you are saying makes sense.:agree:

Pete
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  #40  
Old August 9th 2007, 09:51
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Hi

Sometimes they use small springs as spacer so that when you jack the car up the spring doesn't fall of its perch.

If your going to drill the arm out, why not just drill it out to 14mm so a bolt will fit through and use a nut & bolt like I mentioned before.

Steve
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  #41  
Old August 9th 2007, 15:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petevw View Post
From what i know they are 944T AL arms with Bilstein/Eibach coilovers and Remmele Uniball springplates. I don't know the details of the springrates.
AFAIK they are GWD/Gerd Weiser rear coil-overs.
I was about to call him anyway, so I will ask him about the spacing of the springs in combination with the 944 arms.
They are 60mm ID springs (see below), which AFAIK should fit.
At least they do on 944's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petevw View Post
What is the purpose of the dual spring setup? Pulling the bottom one out should get me to where i want.
I will ask Gerd Weiser about this too. I'd suggest to keep it.
The helper springs are there to keep some force on the main springs when the damper is fully extended. They also have some influence on the suspensions force-curve (only on the low forces, since they are rated lower than the main springs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by petevw View Post
Alex, do you know what it the thread on the inside on the arm? If its M14 x 1.25 or M14 x 1.75, that would explain the M14 x 1.5 bolt stripping it out.
They are M14 x 1,5 x 85mm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petevw View Post
The springs are marked,

Top black,
Eibach 41/99
ERS 140-60-120

Bottom Red
Eibach 27/98
ERS 40-60-55

How do we know the springrates?
They are Eibach ERS springs.

For the main springs (the black ones):
- the 1st number is the free/extended length
- the 2nd number is the ID (Inside Diameter)
- the 3rd number is the springrate

Since these springs are "European" type springs (i.e. with a 60mm ID), the values in their names are in European/SI units.
So the free length as well as the Inside Diameter are in mm and the spring rate is in N/mm.

This means the main spring you have is a 140mm long, 60mm ID, 120 N/mm (685 lbs/inch) spring.
It's spring travel is 71mm and it's compressed/coil-bind length is 69mm.

The tender springs (as they are called) numbering works almost the same, except that the first number represents the spring travel instead of the free/extend length of the spring.
So:
- the 1st number is the spring travel
- the 2nd number is the ID (Inside Diameter)
- the 3rd number is the springrate
So the tender spring is a 40mm free travel, 60mm ID, 55 N/mm (314 lbs/inch) spring.
It's a linear spring which free/extended length is 68mm and it's compressed/coil-bind length is 24mm.



For more specs/the search engine, see:
http://eibach.com and go Eibach ERS springs in the top menu.
or their motorsport catalog:
http://eibach.com/eibach/img/ers-catalog-2004.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bug@5speed(US) View Post
Here is a better pic of that rear lower adapter for 1/2 coilovers..

I will check my manual as I don't remember the size..
A
Alex, I can't see any pictures?
If you have some, could you post them?
I am interested in those bolts as well (they should be 2 part bolts AFAIK).

Last edited by Simon; November 11th 2007 at 10:15.
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  #42  
Old August 9th 2007, 19:10
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Thanks for the info. Please let me know what GWD says.

I'll retap the sleeves, and hopefully it turns out well.

Alex, i can't see the picture either. Can you repost?
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Last edited by petevw; August 9th 2007 at 19:15.
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  #43  
Old August 9th 2007, 22:41
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Pete, If you can't get a good thread in the there, you can use a helicoil, or a E-Z LOC insert. They have them for all different sizes.
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  #44  
Old August 11th 2007, 08:03
Simon Simon is offline
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Pete, I haven't been able to reach him yet, but I will try again on monday.
Btw. Are you using an IRS pan? Or were the mounts for the trailing arms welded on?
Could you measure the extended length of the shocks (middle eye to eye)? I am looking for some double adjustable dampers that might fit.


I have been looking around for 944 coil-over options though, and most of them seem to use 2,25" = 57,15mm ID springs.
They are a little smaller than the 60mm Eibach ERS springs, it might be that those 1,5mm make (part of) the difference we need.

Attached is a picture from the Bilstein Cup coilover on a 944, using 2,25" ID springs. It doesn't interfere with the trailing arms and it's mounting eye is right against the trailing arm (ie not using something like the racers edge bolts to space the away from the trailing arms).
What is visible though, is that the bottom mounting eye is offset from the center of the shock.
What can be seen as well is that it's actually quiet a tight fit, with little clearance between the bottom spring perch and the trailing arm.
I would guess a 60mm ID spring might not fit in this case.

The 2nd attachment is a picture from a Koni 3012 damper + 2,25" ID springs.
It's mounting eye is in line with the centerline of the damper and it uses a spacer (racers edge one) to keep it from interfering with the trailing arms (+it acts as an adapter for 14mm->1/2")
It seems there is more space available with this setup, so a 60mm ID spring might work with this.

All in all it seems a small spacer might fix the problem.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 944_bilstein_cup.jpg (75.7 KB, 122 views)
File Type: jpg 944_rear_koni_3012.jpg (43.4 KB, 122 views)

Last edited by Simon; August 12th 2007 at 07:10.
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  #45  
Old August 23rd 2007, 18:30
Simon Simon is offline
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Result from the conversation with GWD:
They have no experience with 944 trailing arms, so he doesn't know if it should fit or not.

He did offer me te send me a pair so I can test it myself.
That's customer-service!


Anyway:
I did some more digging and there is a rss club suspension from KW for the 944 (front and rear) which uses 60mm springs on both the front and the rear.
As far as I have been able to track it down it doesn't use any kind of spacer and the mounting eyes are in line with the centerline for the damper.

Like I said above: Try the Racers edge bolts (if the mounting eye fits) and don't forget to space the uppermount a little inwards too.
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