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  #16  
Old October 29th 2010, 04:03
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Originally Posted by 70Turbobug View Post
Also,I would rather go with a Porsche gearbox if you plan on 300BHP.A Hewland will not hold the torque.Remmele´s 3 liter puts out 350NM,the Pauter won´t be any less either.An early G50 short nose or a late model 915 will work without any problems.You can of course have a bug gearbox built to take that power aswell.
After discussing with my mechanic we decided to keep the 901 gearbox. After the rebuild my 901 (bugat5-speed kit included) is brand new since I changed every moving part with Powerhaus custom gear ratios. Therefore I will keep the tranny. The point is that to find a buyer for my 2.7 type IV motor and then I will proceed either with Pauter or with Remmele.
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  #17  
Old November 19th 2010, 04:51
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I've heard that Remmele is working on a 3.6-3.8l based upon a new crankcase.More specifically a 96 X 112 Type4 with his own case and Deutz Cylinder. (3700 ccm). Has anyone heard anything about that?
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  #18  
Old November 19th 2010, 06:53
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How much larger can they get? The BIG issue will be balancing the reciprocating mass and on such a short engine the crank is going to look horrible. I suspect that we will see a massive external damper and mallory plugs in the counterweights.

The Pauter Super Pro casing looks good but will 'only' accommodate 108mm pistons and note that they don't show the billet crank in any of the component photos. The Pauter is limited to 3.5 litres and reputedly put out over 900bhp and rev'd to 9k on the dyno!

Clive
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  #19  
Old November 21st 2010, 11:07
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I've heard that Remmele is working on a 3.6-3.8l based upon a new crankcase.
Its a pity they do not persue the limits of the type 4 casing some more and instead put R&D time in a new case. I think there is much more to gain still, especially after he has casted his own heads.
If you start making your own case, its so far off anything VW, I start loosing interest. But thats entirely personal of course.
Its odd from a marketing standpoint too: there is loosing interest in most things performance type 4 related and then in a recession, a new case is being made!?
Cooling an even larger engine on the streets might be a challenge too...
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  #20  
Old November 23rd 2010, 07:13
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Wally I think that the limitations of the type 4 casing are the studs that hold the heads. I have done a 5th stud conversion to mine in order to make sure that we will not have any leaks. Anyway I believe that still is VW because even on the new case the idea still remains the same.
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  #21  
Old November 23rd 2010, 08:00
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Wally I think that the limitations of the type 4 casing are the studs that hold the heads. I have done a 5th stud conversion to mine in order to make sure that we will not have any leaks. Anyway I believe that still is VW because even on the new case the idea still remains the same.
Your describing a head warping problem here above, not an engine case limit imo.

Even so: How do you explain my 500Nm/400hp at 24 psi boost with non-welded, many times machined (=futher weakened) 103mm bore turbo'd original type 4 heads?
And I don't just drag race them, but much worse: Autobahn and track day use! I do something to them to keep the seal, but its not a 5th or 6 stud...

Sure, at some point studs will always become a problem: even new EVO's, Honda's and WRX-STi's replace their factory studs and use ARP head studs in larger diameters for there high-hp turbo'd engines.

Therefore, by the above reasoning/proof: the type 4 case is fine as a base for much more hp then you and I will ever run. Stiffer/stronger heads would surely help, but only if head cooling ability is not compromised!

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  #22  
Old November 23rd 2010, 08:22
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I understand what you are saying Wally but you see I am not a big fun of turbo charged engines. I know that they give out impressive numbers (like yours) but in Greece the summer is extremely hot and Athens as every other big city has a LOT OF TRAFFIC and when I say a lot I mean A LOT. The biggest type iv engine comes from Remmele again which is a 3,1 and as I have been told the engine runs perfectly even on heavy traffic. Her temp is always on normal numbers, therefore I believe that he have solved the cooling issues. On the other hand when I asked Pauter about his long block he told me that I will have temperature issues. The normal aspirated type 4 case cannot go beyond the 3.1 ltr and trust me, everything is extremely tide in there which might become an issue.
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  #23  
Old November 23rd 2010, 09:17
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So, your suggesting that my turbo engine gets hotter then a very large n/a version?
-> in normal daily driving (between 2000 and 3000 rpm), my engine is just a n/a engine with very low CR, so it usually runs a lot cooler then a large n/a...
That also applies (even more) in Athens
..and has nothing to do with cases or head studs.

The only application a Pauter cased engine would make sense imho is on the drag strip in a blown application above 750hp.

The torque he gets with his 3,1 ltr can easily be matched or exceeded with a type 4. Wrenchride his engine he just posted here on GermanLook engineforum is a perfect example i think
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  #24  
Old November 23rd 2010, 10:16
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Wally do not take me wrong because I am not into the turbocharged engines. As I told you above I am extremely impressed with the figures of your engine. I am just telling you that the original case limitations are the 105mm pistons. Even with the 105 pistons the walls of the case are extremely thin. You cannot go bigger on an original type 4 case. That's it. As far as the cooling issues is concerned I am sure that your engine runs cool, but what happens when you want to play a little bit and after a while you suddenly hit a huge jam. I believe that if that happens the large n/a version copes better than a turbocharged.
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  #25  
Old November 23rd 2010, 11:03
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The type 4 case is pretty strong.The problem with the case imho is not the case itself but the hardware that holds it together,specifically the through bolts.If you´re going to build a large type 4 with a large stroker crank above 84mm and a 105mm bore than larger through bolts are the way to go.I have six 14mm through bolts that Remmele uses in my 3 liter case.A 5th or six stud system causes head leaks in my opinion.I had a 2459cc (71x105) with a 5th stud and the heads leaked.Also,if you are going to build a 3 liter or any type using a 105 bore or larger,then Engine Plus heads or Pauter heads will provide more stability and seal than an original type head.The Remmele heads are not sold to the general public by themselves. If you decide to use an original type 4 head DO NOT use a 5th or sixth stud,it just makes things worse.One option is is o seal the heads the way Porsche did on their turbomotors (aircooled) using a step machined into the head.Also in an NA application the type 4 head reaches it´s limits quickly above 2.7 liters or 220-240BHP - that´s about as high as you can go and maintain somewhat driveability and reliability.If you´re looking for bigger numbers with an NA type 4,then different heads like Engine Plus are inevidable imho.Will a large Pauter or Autocraft have the same reliability as say a 2.7 type 4 with original heads or say a ca. 300hp 3 liter Remmele engine with the big heads? I don´t know....

As a side note: a turbocharged engine does not run hotter in traffic than an NA engine - just the opposite actually,because the heads on a high strung NA Engine usually are less efficient in cooling than a stock head with its large ports,high compression ratio,large duration/overlap cam etc..Most turbocharged engines have mild heads and while in traffic are not on boost and are basically a mild NA engine because there is no load on the motor in traffic,have less compression,milder cam,so intake heat and the associated cooling problems do not come up,unless improperly engineered

Last edited by 70Turbobug; November 23rd 2010 at 11:10.
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  #26  
Old November 23rd 2010, 11:10
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Wally do not take me wrong because I am not into the turbocharged engines.
No worries, its just a discussion on arguments

Quote:
I am just telling you that the original case limitations are the 105mm pistons. Even with the 105 pistons the walls of the case are extremely thin. You cannot go bigger on an original type 4 case. That's it.
Totally agree. Just saying a 2,8-2,9 ltr type 4 with 103mm bore can be made so that it gives equal or better power. So you don't need 105mm bore when using a type 4 based engine.
That was the point I tried to make above.

Quote:
As far as the cooling issues is concerned I am sure that your engine runs cool, but what happens when you want to play a little bit and after a while you suddenly hit a huge jam. I believe that if that happens the large n/a version copes better than a turbocharged.
Ah! I have experienced that your last statement is just not true! NOT TRUE (to make that extra clear).
and for all the reasons I already mentioned above.

I must work on expression myself better...

I don;t have a problem with you or anyone not liking a turbo engine, but the pre-judgements surrounding it are hard to get over obviously, even if I proved them all wrong.
Its also why I call my bug sometimes 'Mythbuster'...
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  #27  
Old November 23rd 2010, 11:20
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Quote:
Totally agree. Just saying a 2,8-2,9 ltr type 4 with 103mm bore can be made so that it gives equal or better power. So you don't need 105mm bore when using a type 4 based engine.
That was the point I tried to make above.
Exactly.I´m not convinced that a 105 mm bore will make more noticeable power than the same engine with a 103mm bore.

Quote:
I don;t have a problem with you or anyone not liking a turbo engine, but the pre-judgements surrounding it are hard to get over obviously, even if I proved them all wrong.
I remember the days where Wally was just as skeptical about turbos much like some of his critics today that he has proven wrong in many things.I´ve always been pro turbo and Wally´s Mythbuster has shown me some new aspects and busted some myths that I believed in or experienced myself.90% of my turbo experience comes from aircraft engines,so I learn more everyday especially with all the tuning possibities that EFI/motormanagements offer.Some things that used to be a problem can be basically tuned away...
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  #28  
Old November 23rd 2010, 11:41
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Quite right Mark. I still like a high revving n/a even more for the sound and response I think, but the shear power a turbo can make is just so much more fun then a pretty noise only

Now if some-one said a turbo engine is more complex and adds expense, I totally agree, but thats the only true argument I never hear... all the other arguments are just prejudice and/or bad-tuning/design related.

But lets get back to topic
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  #29  
Old November 24th 2010, 15:09
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Originally Posted by TSAF View Post
I've heard that Remmele is working on a 3.6-3.8l based upon a new crankcase.More specifically a 96 X 112 Type4 with his own case and Deutz Cylinder. (3700 ccm). Has anyone heard anything about that?
That is true.A 3783cc. It´s in the works as we speak,but not available yet. It has 5 main bearings and the cam sits 6mm lower than a type 4 case.The cylinder spacing will be the same as a type 4 ,so he can use his heads,but with a wider studspacing IIRC and will have Deutz cylinders.The case will be able to use type 4 cams and lifters.

The 3 liter is already faster from 0-200km/h than the current 997 Porsche GT3 RS by about 1 second. The 3 liter in Remmele´s bug will make the sprint to 200Km/h in 11,5 seconds,top speed is about 250km/h.
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  #30  
Old November 24th 2010, 16:39
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Originally Posted by 70Turbobug View Post
That is true.A 3783cc. It´s in the works as we speak,but not available yet. It has 5 main bearings and the cam sits 6mm lower than a type 4 case.The cylinder spacing will be the same as a type 4 ,so he can use his heads,but with a wider studspacing IIRC and will have Deutz cylinders.The case will be able to use type 4 cams and lifters.
Thats actaully pretty nice engineering wise
I am very doubtfull though how the thick short finned steel Deutz cylinders and his solid heads can cool cylinders that are that close together (now room for cooling air anymore between barrels). No air through the heads like original heads and no air through the cylinders must give cooling problems on the autobahn surely?
Quote:
The 3 liter is already faster from 0-200km/h than the current 997 Porsche GT3 RS by about 1 second. The 3 liter in Remmele´s bug will make the sprint to 200Km/h in 11,5 seconds,top speed is about 250km/h.
and that ^^ is very cool, but hard to believe as well It would mean a 1/4 mile time of low 11's. That seems hardly possible with his street weight and street tires...
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