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  #16  
Old January 3rd 2012, 10:43
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Wally Wally is offline
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Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
Maybe I can chime in with my opinion.
My biggest push to go Subaru is cost. For far less than a type 4 or type 1, I can have a reliable Subaru. Even with the cost of the radiator, computer, adapter... the cost is far less, but the work is far more.
My opinion is that the suburu engine isn't that reliable if you really want to get some real power from it.
With some real power, the costs are just as high as for an aircooled engine.

Eventually, something will need repairing and/or maintainance, see how cheap your modern 16V engine is then...
Subaru engines are just not that efficient (don't have the VE) or have the reliability of Honda K-engines and Mitsubishi EVO engines (or the Toyota 2jz). Even the STi-tuners/shops (read nasioc for that) are in agreement with that.

You remain with the sad part of hacking up your car and considerably more total engine weight, which needs even more power to overcome, which it doesn't give untill you go to an accomplished engine builder/suby tuner shop.
With a heavy subaru conversion, you simply also need more power then an aircooled engine.
Subaru conversions are usually never about performance and generally struggle to be anywhere near fast.
And if they have a properly strong hp output to overcome their extra weight, they aren't cheap anymore...

Personally I think with today's excellent EFI computers, any engine can be made to run reliable with great power. Partly to find that out and or prove the point beyond doubt, I am building a 1200cc T1 engine with EFI and a small subaru (yesss!) turbo destined for 150-200hp.
Its pretty low cost and I am sure it will be powerfull, reliable and much more economical (mpg) then a your average 2+ltr suburu.
Think about what you could do with a 1600cc T1 or 1700 T4 engine...

My personal opinion is that all that complain about cost, just have no experience to build an aircooled engine (or subaru engine for that matter) properly. Not intended to insult anybody, but wouldn't it be far more fun and rewarding to build your own engine, learn something in the process and accomplish something with a '30-s design that rivals modern 16 valve engines? With this über simple engine design with ever increasing performance industry and better and more efficient parts coming available everyday (yes, contrary to popular believe and everybody's moaning about parts quality), its THE most rewarding place to start. Just learn not to assemble an engine but to BUILD an engine. Big difference. Plus the nice thing is that if you BUILD your engine, your much less dependent/susceptable to part quality.
Get a good manual and then another one and start reading and doing.
This is hobby right? You can take your own time right? It doesn't have to be finished in 2 weeks time, which makes the cost factor an even less issue as costs over time is what counts usually.

Thats my opinion anyways.
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  #17  
Old January 3rd 2012, 11:53
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Great discussion here. I tend to agree with Wally on this, weight is very easy to add to a car but much harder to take off as I've found out. I run with a basically stock 1600 in autocross (slalom) racing and am able to keep up with cars with far more hp than I have. Why? My car is so much lighter and nimbler through the course. A better handling car in this type of racing will beat a car with more hp. It depends upon what your goals are though.

I'll take a similar example, a stock Porsche 944 in todays terms. This was as is an excellent handling car and very good on a road course (still is actually). Very neutral front to rear, big 4 cylinder with good torque. Guys come along and want to drop an LS1 V8 in there instead because then it would be a monster. 400+hp should be better than the original 150, right? Really? The LS1 weighs the same as the original 4 cylinder--really? Even if an aluminum block V8 weighed close to the same as the iron block 4, what about the transmission to go with the V8, or the headers/exhaust, or the rear end or even changing the front to rear bias/handling? I just don't think there's a free lunch in any of this, whatever engine is used you have to really compare the power to weight advantages (direct-injection being the exception the last few years--which has really managed to squeeze a lot of hp from engines).

At one point I was going to do a 911 swap in my car but now we have a child so the amount of time I have to invest in the car is a lot less. I sold the '76 unit I had a few months ago, it had the oil cooler mounted on the engine so no need to route up to the right front fender. The main reason I got this engine is the torque output (this is what pulls the car off the line). Engine puts out 165hp at 5800rpms and 180ft./lb at 4000rpms, not bad for late 70s technology. No matter what you do to a VW 1600 T1 or T4 you will never produce squeeze this type of torque out of a four banger, sure 165hp is possible with a T1 but 180 ft./lb. ain't gonna happen unless you're revving in Honda territory ($$$$) which isn't where I wanted the power. For comparison:

EJ22 Subaru motor
2212cc SOHC
Horsepower: 142 bhp @ 5600 rpm
Torque: 149 lb·ft @ 3600 rpm

EJ25
2457cc
DOHC (1996) - SAE - 155 hp @ 5600 rpm
140 ft·lbf at 2800 rpm
DOHC (1997–1999) - SAE - 165 hp @ 5600 rpm
162 ft·lbf at 4000 rpm

This is nothing against Subarus, I've heard nothing but good things about how solid the engines are (OHC a big advantage vs. the T1, T4). Don't the STIs and Evos take a higher amount of maintenance though because it's such a highly tuned 4 cylinder? I remember coming across something about this as well. The last couple of years, the new models would gain only a few hp over the old one.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2011/..._of_ownership/

If only the POLO engine were more affordable,

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...tor-912-a.html

]
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Last edited by Jadewombat; January 3rd 2012 at 12:42.
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  #18  
Old January 3rd 2012, 12:26
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That Polo engine is cool! Never even heard of such an animal.
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  #19  
Old January 4th 2012, 03:29
56SemaRag 56SemaRag is offline
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Of course this would come up. Thank goodness they are all just opinions.

A good read from actual builders of many Subaru engines pointing out facts and myths about their historical limitations and strong points.

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...h/viewall.html

They all agree that the basic Subaru EJ255/EJ257 block can easily handle 550hp before needing sleeves and several point out that nothing needs to be done up to 400hp on stock rotating internals, I would call that a pretty decent power limit right off the bat. Even brand new factory Subaru blocks and internals are not that expensive for that kind of power, jump down to quality used and it gets less exspensive. To get into the next stage is a few $$$ hundred more in rods, bearings and pistons.

I guess the sad part of cutting up my car began in the 80's when I wanted a ragtop for my '56. I cut up another VW to get the sunroof. Sadly I have also cut up my car to make way for the Mendeola suspension going in it. I have seen Subaru conversions that have been classy, clean and hardly noticeable and that is the model I am going to follow. EJ hybrids can be fitted into early engine bays without cutting. No matter what one person does to a VW someone is going to have an opinion about it. What makes others sad because they take a saw and welder to their car, motivates others to be creative and I accept it. After all it's their car. My car could have been a Baja if I sold it long ago...but as long as it had an air cooled engine it would be okay with some.

Some engine designs outlast others because they are designed so well. The EJ series is still in major production and generating over 300hp reliably the same isn't true for...well you know. Their VE may not be the greatest but brand new stock SOHC RS type heads from the factory flow over 255 at .500" (Intake) so there is room for improvement (I think the T4 2.0's were less than 180 at the same lift so their VE must be incredible ) All kidding aside, at a cost of $500 each, money saved can be put towards a port job and valve grind if desired with the Suby heads. I am sure someone has charts for stock head flow along with the price tag of new TIV heads. I'm not bashing the TIV by any means, just pointing out that the heads already flow quite well at a very affordable price. If Mr Raby is seriously looking into Subaru's maybe they aren't all that bad eh?

Mad respect for what you do and have done with the TIV Wally. I mean that. I just have a differing opinion on what the Suby can do and for how much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadewombat View Post
For comparison:

EJ22 Subaru motor
2212cc SOHC
Horsepower: 142 bhp @ 5600 rpm
Torque: 149 lb·ft @ 3600 rpm

EJ25
2457cc
DOHC (1996) - SAE - 155 hp @ 5600 rpm
140 ft·lbf at 2800 rpm
DOHC (1997–1999) - SAE - 165 hp @ 5600 rpm
162 ft·lbf at 4000 rpm

This is nothing against Subarus, I've heard nothing but good things about how solid the engines are (OHC a big advantage vs. the T1, T4). Don't the STIs and Evos take a higher amount of maintenance though because it's such a highly tuned 4 cylinder? I remember coming across something about this as well. The last couple of years, the new models would gain only a few hp over the old one.
The newer WRX/STi's have been warrantied for 5 years / 60,000 miles and make considerably more power today than the 12 year old examples given. Complete MY96-99 listed can be easily had with a 5 speed transmissions for less than $1,500. As the price of reverse cut Ring and Pinions becomes more affordable others will be taking to the dark side.

'03 and later WRX EJ20's with improved 5 speed gearboxes and 220hp can be had for around $2500 as well. There will be no let up on the flood of quality JDM power trains because of their regulations. Anyone who has been through a Japanese Vehicle Inspection known as a "Shaken" understands this. The 5 speed I picked up for $260 was immaculate, a local wrecker wanted the same price for a 901 trans that had been sitting for years. Ebay prices for 901's aren't inexpensive, forget about 915's or G-50's in decent shape. What's a rebuild of one of those going to cost? I believe there is an will be a cost difference because of the economies of scale and ease of availability.

To each their own, I am just happy to see so many old VW's being worked on and cruising down the road regardless of what gets them going.

Last edited by 56SemaRag; January 4th 2012 at 04:04.
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  #20  
Old January 4th 2012, 05:04
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Originally Posted by 56SemaRag View Post
They all agree that the basic Subaru EJ255/EJ257 block can easily handle 550hp before needing sleeves and several point out that nothing needs to be done up to 400hp on stock rotating internals, I would call that a pretty decent power limit right off the bat.
You have really missed my point: If YOU can get 550hp from a stock subaru engine, YOU can also get 450hp from a T4 bottom end! (BTW those are american dyno's you read about, which use the 'socal correction factor'

But most can't get to those numbers with suby engines anywhere close. They all need 'tooners' to do that for them. When you get there, it has become wayyy $$$$$.

Power is never cheap, you cannot cheap out of it by using another platform. Get to learn how to tune yourself is my overwhelming point.

I really don't care what engine base you use, I really don't. All I am saying is that everyone thinks they get cheap power. It never really is and if it isn't, why not use the spirit these cars are based upon and derive most of their uniqueness from: an extremely simple thirties engine design that can surprise most anybody.
With a suby in the back, nobody will be surprised you have a powerfull engine. "Oh, its a Suby huh?". Yeah, sorry, it is buddy...
Or: No, it is still an aircooled VW engine! "WTF! Huh?"
It used to be "Oh, it has a Porsche engine right?" Those were also heavy and didn't make decent power in stock form and we laughed at those remarks all the time.
I love understatement, its a great part of what makes it a German style car.

Unless you start building your own engine (cams, pistons, management, etc), it will never be fast. Maybe has a powerfull engine, but not fast.
I break it down for you even more clearly: A modified car will always be faster then a stock block engine from whatever car you transplant it from!

Oh, and as this is concerned:
Quote:
If Mr Raby is seriously looking into Subaru's maybe they aren't all that bad eh?
Maybe you hadn't noticed, but he runs a shop.
The preconception that suby's are a cheap engine, is what this is based upon. He follows the market(s conception for what is wanted) and is very good at that.
Once he makes a decent powerfull subaru engine, it has sleeves, pistons, cams etc etc and I am back at my original point of that only a build engine is powerfull and if done by a shop WILL cost $$$. About as much as doing a type 4 like that...
Circle completed.

Start building your own people, save there by doing it yourself and have fun doing so.
And if you do, you might as well start by doing that to an aircooled VW engine and have a bug with an understatement in the performance section.
For me, that's what its all about.
Your milage may vary though
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  #21  
Old January 4th 2012, 09:48
56SemaRag 56SemaRag is offline
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That's funny, I had the complete opposite feeling when I saw a Suby that was in a VW. I realized that many of the owners did the work themselves to make something function together that was never designed to. That to some is impressive just as getting big hp numbers from a T4. The uniqueness of the evolving community based around the car not the "spirit" of the car itself or it's designers intent is how some view it.

Perhaps you missed my point. I never said performance is cheap, I implied it's cheaper than other means. Take a stock 2.0 engines from both platforms. Your average builder can reach say 200 HP numbers with less cost with a Suby than a T4 and being frugal has always been a sizeable cross section of the VW community that won't change.

Good day Sir
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  #22  
Old January 4th 2012, 14:25
spannermanager spannermanager is offline
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Thankfully, we are all different, what a bore it would all be if we were all doing the same thing, one weakness of the interweb, is it spawns copycat workmanship, but even this promotes our hobby if it enables ' less mechanically inclined' people to pull of a build they could not hope to do without the 'net help they can access thro great forums like this one, everyone has something to offer in my view, times have never been harder, most folk cant aspire to do the stuff we are doing, time wise or cash wise, like it or not most of our builds are big bucks, i think nothing of putting 200 hrs into a set of heads and manifolds, those i beat think i have an advantage, they've actually told me so, but i still have to put the unpaid hours in, down the cold w/shop over the hols ive found another 10 hp joking aside, would you pay me 100 hrs plus core for a set of heads? All i need to do what i need to do is 220 hp/195 ft/lb in 750 kg, it needs to run for an hour reliably, and do it all season long, how much would that cost if i had to buy it,? i don't know, but i know i'm lucky to be doing it, my chosen motor is the wasser boxer, because its very versatile and light, and we all know what outputs they are capable of, my 2.5 ran 350 plus hp back in the '80s, and was probably the first turbo wasser, so its having it easy now on carbs, anything weighing more than 1kg on the car get looked at hard, and if its not pulling its own weight it aint on there, even this, as an Okrasa kit motor, is priceless at replacement money i would imagine. i think we should all respect whatever builds are going on, the time factor we put in equalizes us all, no matter the chosen power plant.
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  #23  
Old January 4th 2012, 19:40
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Hi

Well said spannermanager. If we all did the same thing we could end up like Cal Look cars.

Steve
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  #24  
Old January 4th 2012, 21:24
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Also rs25.com for NA related questions.
Just don't mind the knuckle heads.
Alex
ps due miss nasioc when I had my Rex
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  #25  
Old April 12th 2013, 01:07
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We now offer a conversion kit to allow a Subaru trans to into a type one pan....


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  #26  
Old April 12th 2013, 15:24
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Saw this the other day on google reader, and got me thinking.

Unfortunately $$ is always a constrain but would be interesting.

Porsche reportedly working on new turbocharged flat-four boxer engine:

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/04/10/p...lat-four-boxe/

VR
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  #27  
Old April 12th 2013, 17:35
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Engines > To Subaru, or not to Subaru?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bug@5speed(US) View Post
Saw this the other day on google reader, and got me thinking.

Unfortunately $$ is always a constrain but would be interesting.

Porsche reportedly working on new turbocharged flat-four boxer engine:

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/04/10/p...lat-four-boxe/

VR
Alex
This is what makes this whole hobby so Interesting.New developments like this give hope for the future .This might one day be the chosen power plants for the future GL Tuners/modifiers.Tuning and modifying has been happening since the 70's, who's to say that 20 years from now this would not be THE engine of choice for VW engine conversion enthusiasts of the future.Would anyone of predicted in the 70's that in 2013 people would be running 300 bhp+ motors in street legal bugs.I one day dream of owning a flat six diesel engine in a camper running on pure veg oil.Or even some kind of water based fuel system,who knows.
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  #28  
Old April 14th 2013, 13:19
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I guess I'll toss in my $.02. I've been tracking, hill climbing, autoxing, racing, and generally driving fast super beetles for over 10 years now. I've had a 1776 T1, 2L T4, high CR 2L T4, high CR race ready 2165 T1, and my current turbo 2165 T1 race motor. I built all of them, except the first 1776, with my own hands and none of them ever blew up (maybe that means I could have pushed them harder). I have probably spent close to $50k in motors, if not more, in that time. I've have stock suspension cars to full on porsche swapped high grip monsters. The reason I'm going subaru is because I've reached the limitations where high hp and air cooling meet. I just can't keep the head temps down for longer sprints. Even 8 back to back autox runs about a minute long each can spike the head temps over 400F.

The EJ25T STi motor should give me similar power and more torque than my current race motor, in stock form. The sti motor weighs a lot yes, but not significantly more than my aluminum case race motor now. I know that VW T1, T4, and even wasserboxer motors can make crazy power but I haven't seen them do it under circuit race conditions. I'm talking about 15+ minutes of hard, on boost, full throttle time during a 20 minute sprint. I know NA motors can do it but they don't make the power I'm after. That's what I was trying to accomplish with my current setup but it's not quite there.
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  #29  
Old April 14th 2013, 15:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humble View Post
I know that VW T1, T4, and even wasserboxer motors can make crazy power but I haven't seen them do it under circuit race conditions. I'm talking about 15+ minutes of hard, on boost, full throttle time during a 20 minute sprint.
I guess you totally missed my posts about my track days and race participation then?
I've run Spa-francorchamp more then once full-on at 20psi (=400+hp) with the type 4 turbo untill I ran out of gas...
Might have been a little too much for type 1 heads probably, so I see where you're coming from.
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Old April 15th 2013, 16:00
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You've also said that you don't think you drive as aggressively as I do. :P I have been following you and your car for years, I just wish you'd get a couple gopro cameras already! I would love to swap cars with you and compare them back to back. As for my problems, it could be a limitation of the heads or that my combo isn't dialed in as well as yours. I'm sure the lack of intercooler isn't helping me either.
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