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  #1  
Old March 27th 2003, 18:00
Mr.ElectWizard
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911 Fan Shroud

Jake,
What size engine would merit using a 911 fan shroud? And which oil cooler do you suggest using?
thanks
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  #2  
Old April 14th 2003, 13:37
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OK,
I know that a stock TIV wouldn't need one. Might overcool the motor, so are they not necessary until you get into the 2.2L range?
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  #3  
Old April 14th 2003, 13:46
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Mr ElectWizard
are you just requoting someone or are these your findings?

I have seen many smaller motors using these shrouds and have never heard of it damaging anyones motor.

And according to Jakes new findings they may not cool as much as thought previosly.
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  #4  
Old April 14th 2003, 16:05
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Heck, in my findings they are not needed at all. Mostly they are used for cosmetics.

I only have one version of an engine smaller than a 2270 that uses one.

Last week I built 2 identical engines, one was for a 914, the other was for a Bug with the 911 shroud. With the EXACT same settings the STOCK cooled engine COOLED BETTER!

Test was done on the same day, same weather, hell I even used the same distributor and same carbs. I have witnesses, one of which now does not want the 911 shroud on his engine!!!
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  #5  
Old April 14th 2003, 19:04
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Disclaimer: This is not intended to p*** anybody off but I thought the additional info should be posted:

Hi Jake,

when ever the 911 shroud is mentioned I feel that I am a total idiot for using one because of looks.

First of all:

All the years before the entire North American VW scene said that they overcool the engine. Now it is being said that they do not cool as good as stock. I am not doubting your findings at all but it is kind of strange that they do the opposite of what was said before.

Also this findings could have several reasons:

Shroud design and/ or the fan blade that was used.

To my knowledge there are several manufacturers of 911 cooling kits: MSS (CSP/WEISER etc), PTP, Remmele, Klaus, WILKE, WILLIBALD, CIP, Bergmann, Sharbuilt, FAT
I am sure I forgot quite a few. Also there are 3 different Porsche fans that can be used:5 blade, 11 blade and the 12 blade C2 fan

The 11 blade fan came in 2 sizes.....911 Turbo used a smaller one.
There are copies of fans that are made by the manufactures of the 911 kits....at least some of them do it.

Golf alternators or Porsche ones are used too.

The kits also come in 4 different fan ring sizes. If you shuffle this with the different shroud designs I can not believe that they are all junk. I know your opinion and you know mine. Your finding was quite interesting but it would be more interesting if a FAT, Sharpbuilt and other kits were used as well in that testing. I know that the one you tested was put on one of your engines before and you were not impressed which btw I could totally understand why.

The point I am trying to make now is will everybody say now that the shrouds do NOT cool as good as stock?

The C2 fan produces the smallest amout of air followed by the 11 blade and the best is the 5 blade. If you turn down the C2 fan to the small size to fit all the small 240 911 kits you lose 40% of effectiveness (Tested by Rolf Klaus) which is not true if you use the small version of the 11 blade fan that Porsche used in the 911 Turbo.

Alex

An interesting point too is that you can get a 911 kit complete with 911 alternator/ring and fan for 600$ FAT ( 3??$ for shourd kit and the rest for used Porsche parts and no machining of the case) if you are lucky so they are not that expensive too.
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Old April 14th 2003, 19:30
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I also would like to mention that I do not doubt the effectiveness of the DTM or Jakes new shroud.

This is only geared towards the 911 cooling kits.

Alex
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  #7  
Old April 14th 2003, 21:38
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I have nothing more to say. I know what I see time after time. I know what I saw in that test (which was actually never intended to be a test)

I will stand my ground with this, but will not let it grow into another argumant that gets people mad.

Things that contradict conventional wisdom stir up alot of questions, and start arguments.

Alex knows the truth about a certain component that would send people reeling if I were to share what my experiences with it were......

No more time for arguments.
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Old April 15th 2003, 05:17
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Now I get really curious. Would that be the under-cylinder cooling tin?
Walter
(you may also let me know this by privat e-mail)
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Old April 15th 2003, 11:54
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I'm kinda curious with this thread about one thing ... are these the opinions and observations surrounding the 2056 and 2270 engines only, or are they universal (including the 2563)?

Thanks,
René
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  #10  
Old April 15th 2003, 13:39
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In my observation, engine size has no affect on the results, however the combinations of parts do...

I know it seems outlandish, and hard to believe but I'm considering not using any 911 cooling systems in the future. My customer base is mainly comprised of people who take practicality and performance over cosmetics.
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Old April 15th 2003, 19:20
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not to stir up an argument but i think it needs to be noted that you(Jake) use the 911 kit on only one engine and that is because you need to make the heat for the fan to be needed. so does the fan overcool or undercool? i dont know about all the variations of this kit but it seems like if you have to create heat a.k.a more compression, headwork, cam, and others, then it sounds like the 911 kit cools too good for use on the average motor. just my thoughts on the matter. thanks guys.
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  #12  
Old April 15th 2003, 19:31
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This particular engine was different!

The customer originally had purchased a DTM kit, the order was never filled(just like alot of others).

The customer had to make his mind up so we ended up splitting the case again and machining for the 911 fan. The engine combo was already assembled, so it had to stay the same as any other version C. The 2 engines in question had the same deck height, same head cc, same valve margins, same cam, same everything. Looking at the specs all I can see that was different was the rod side clearances and the pushrod length (which is rarely the same) we netted the same valve lifts and the works!

This engine was directly tested against another 2270 Version C oon the same day, same dyno, same tank of fuel and same operator. We never even planned it that way till we decided to do the back to back testing.

There was no other changes,neither overheated, but one did stay much cooler, and thats not the one with the huge fan.

More air is not the answer, efficiently routed air, is..... believe me if you want, come watch me and you will doubt no more.
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  #13  
Old April 16th 2003, 08:42
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Jake

I dont think anyone here is doubting your findings.

I do believe that any successful company in this day & age
would have to do many conclusive tests before publishing their findings.

Could you imagine is Pfizer only tested Viagra on 1 person?
Would anyone be willing to risk their life using their product?

Or what if GM only did one road test with their Corvette?
Would anyone spend $50,000 on a Corvette if they werent sure that it could accelerate or stop as fast as the manufacturer has claimed?

From what I have gathered on the net, their is not enough conclusive evidence not to use the 911 Shroud on any size engine.
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  #14  
Old April 16th 2003, 10:08
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Jake,

I'm holding out on an engine right now because of all of the promising developments in the Type 4 world.

The development of your 2316cc BEAST is amazing as is LN Engineering's new heads.

I'm budgeting for an 80mm x 100mm (Biral Babies) based engine with LN's new heads (2513cc). I'm looking for a mid-performer, not a screamer, with the potential to upgrade to a screamer.

I understand that this type of engine might run as cool as a stocker. What do you think would be the cooling requirements for this type of engine ? Would the 911 fan be overkill ?

Thanks

Sandeep
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  #15  
Old April 16th 2003, 11:04
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I'm finding that it may be overkill for about any engine.


See, what I say defys conventional wisdom.

I will never absolutely publish that the system does not work, but when I feel strongly enough about it to refuse to use any of them on any of my engines (just like hydro lifters) people should realize that what I found was conclusive enough! I have been noticing this for years, not since yesterday. Both in the car, and on the dyno.

People spend their money the wrong way.....an engine is not about cosmetics, or "Sounding good at idle"....when people quit letting the nonsense fact that their engine has to look like a 911 engine to cool, they will figure out the first big step in the road to successful power.

I could have been like everyone else, and made a 911 shroud, instead of my knockoff of the DTM. The molds would have cost 3 times less, as the shroud is one pices, and the casting is very simple. The 911 shroud would have sold like mad to people that want their engine to "Look" like a 911....

I have a new idea, if you want it to look like a 911, just make a 911 engine fit in the engine bay! The result would be something that actually works, has the looks, and the power to boot. Be ready to spend atleast 12K to do it right!
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