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Old November 16th 2005, 01:47
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An $8,000 Question

I received some spirited responses with regards to the starter engine thread. Let's try this hypothetical since one point of divergence was cost.

Let's say I have $8,000 budgeted. This must be spent on a completed engine including exhaust and including labor. This assumes no do-it-yourself action on my part. (It also assumes US-dollars and the American method of using commas to separate the thousands column from the hundreds.)

This budget does not include the installation or the transmission, however. Those are separate issues that I am theoretically okay with.

My stock engine gives me max torque at low RPM's and has a nice flat torque curve throughout the powerband. I like that. I just want more power. I want a trouble-free engine with regular maintenance. I want durability.

What would you do within those parameters?
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Old November 16th 2005, 02:58
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First off, what car is it going into?

With that said it doesn't matter, GO WITH A SUBARU MOTOR. They are dependable, torque'y, sound great, and have the ability to get more power than you could ever use in an early Vdub. A stock EJ20 which you can buy used JDM (japenese domestic market) for $650 has the ability to handle 400 hp healthily (healthily is not a word by the way). Outback motors is great with subaru motors but they are a little pricey, and are unrealisticaly low with their hp #'s. I have personally seen a stock internaled subaru EJ20T motor dynoed on a dynojet at 404 hp and 348 lb/ft of torque and Mack at Outback says $12,000 and race gas (110) will barely get an EJ20T up to 300 hp, so if you want to spend more money than you have to and want your hp hopes shattered call them.

With that out of the way, Danzioperformance.com is incredible with rotary's and subaru motors. I have seen tom pull an extra 66 hp from a bone stock 3rd gen 13B-TT rotary just from tuning it correctly. Give them a call and they will sit and talk with you as long as you have questions. They are considerate, realistic and will treat you right.

So to your question. $8,000 will get you a healthy 450 hp, rebuilt with race rods, forged pistons, and with all of the polished goodies your little heart desires on a subaru motor of your choice. Start with a 2.2 liter block (closed block [much stronger]) billet rods, forged pistons, port and polish the heads, new agressive cams, total seal rings, metal head gaskets, TGV deletes, perrin fuel rails, rc injectors, stock header (better spool time), 48 mm wastegate, and a GT-30 turbo will make an extremely responsive motor with great torque, even better top end, an 8,000 rpm redline, and one hell of a ride. GOOD LUCK
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Old November 16th 2005, 05:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oasis
Let's say I have $8,000 budgeted. This must be spent on a completed engine including exhaust and including labor. This assumes no do-it-yourself action on my part.

What would you do within those parameters?
So, the bolt highlighted part of your wish list clearly means NO watercooled engine swap! Since that always does include a fair amount of modifying something on the engine, your car (mostly) or - usually - both. And I have not come across a company that sells complete Suby or WBX engines, really ready to bolt in into a bug, although they may be coming. www.bugat5speed.de probably is on their way and Oettinger used to sell a complete conversion 2,1 WBX for the 1303 cabriolet

With that budget and being in the US, it would be very easy to just bring it over to aircooled technology, get a complete ready to bolt in 2,3 ltr Type 4 and be done with it...

Although I like the above advise of the so-called 'ready to bolt-in' Suby 450 Hp engine haha! Yeah, right.

Actually its more of a 'no-brainer' than I thought

Regards,
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Last edited by Wally; November 16th 2005 at 05:19.
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Old November 16th 2005, 07:10
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2056 TIV based on your criteria. the Suby is a tempting option, but you have that little radiator thing to deal with an after meeting Oasis this past weekend, i am feeling that he would rather not go that way, but i could be wrong. a TIV will get you what you want and a 2056 (100-110HP if i remember right) should come in around that price range with everything if you go with Raby (probably cheaper).
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Old November 16th 2005, 08:42
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for $8000 you could also buy an 82 x 90.5 T1 (2165?)
Run an engle FK8. Power will be down low in the 2000
rpm range and redline around 6 grand. Would be good
for at least 130hp depending on heads.

Included in that $8000, would be turn key motor, exhaust
and also transmission as well. You may even have a $1000
left over as well.

Try VW Paradise, Chico Performnace, or CB Perfomance.
All well known, realiable T1 engine builders that dyno their motors.
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Old November 16th 2005, 16:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazylongboarder
First off, what car is it going into?
A 1971 Super Beetle (1302).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally
your wish list clearly means NO watercooled engine swap!
Quote:
Originally Posted by zen
2056 TIV based on your criteria. the Suby is a tempting option, but you have that little radiator thing to deal with an after meeting Oasis this past weekend, i am feeling that he would rather not go that way, but i could be wrong. a TIV will get you what you want and a 2056 (100-110HP if i remember right) should come in around that price range with everything if you go with Raby.
I was a bit surprised to see a Suby suggestion first--in fact, at all. I would have thought the radiator (not mentioned in lazylongboarder's post) would have eliminated water-cooled choices because of the one-off pieces necessary--at least according to what I was following in other threads.

zen is right-on about my reluctancy towards a non-VW, non-air-cooled engine. (Was I that transparent? ) Seriously, I could be talked into anything if it stayed within my parameters but converting me to a Suby may be harder than converting my car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vujade
you could also buy an 82 x 90.5 T1 (2165?)
Run an engle FK8. Power will be down low in the 2000
rpm range and redline around 6 grand. Would be good
for at least 130hp depending on heads.
An interesting alternative.

I had read in the past T4's are the kings of low-end torque. After viewing the dyno of my stocker, it made me question why a modified T1 couldn't do it if it does it in its stock form already.

Would both of these suggestions (2056 T4 and 2110 T1*) offer trouble-free maintenance with oil changes and tune-ups at regular intervals?

* - 90.5mm bore and 82mm stroke calculated to 2110cc if I did it right.
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Old November 16th 2005, 16:24
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your probably right about the 2110 config.

90.5 are very realiable.
I use them in a 1776 in the Notch.
By adding a big crank, you are adding
lots of bottom end power and increasing
realiability because the motor doesnt have
to work as hard. You can build this motor
all day long in long block for with all quality
parts for less $4000. Add another 2 - 2500
for carbs, exhaust, tin, ignition, etc, etc
and another grand for a tranny and you are
around $7000 to $7500 complete.
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Old November 16th 2005, 21:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oasis
I received some spirited responses with regards to the starter engine thread. Let's try this hypothetical since one point of divergence was cost.

Let's say I have $8,000 budgeted. This must be spent on a completed engine including exhaust and including labor. This assumes no do-it-yourself action on my part. (It also assumes US-dollars and the American method of using commas to separate the thousands column from the hundreds.)

This budget does not include the installation or the transmission, however. Those are separate issues that I am theoretically okay with.

My stock engine gives me max torque at low RPM's and has a nice flat torque curve throughout the powerband. I like that. I just want more power. I want a trouble-free engine with regular maintenance. I want durability.

What would you do within those parameters?
Wow attack! Man guys, where does this say no watercooled. You can get someone to install the radiator up front.

No subaru...got it, who wants a motor that is from a maker that was nominated most reliable 2 years by consumer reports and maker of the year in 2004 by car and driver.
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Old November 16th 2005, 22:44
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Red face

This plus this = this.
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Old November 17th 2005, 13:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazylongboarder
Wow attack! Man guys, where does this say no watercooled. You can get someone to install the radiator up front.
Now, now, now. Let's simmer down. The other posters are just looking after Dr. Technoklutz; not slamming you or your suggestion.

"Getting someone to install the radiator up front" may sound simple and dandy but it took me a while to find someone willing to install a T4 and associated tranny.

Here are some other things I have read. I understand some things relate to a non-bug and there are different Suby engines from which to choose. Nevertheless...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandeep
My main concern right now is getting the engine to fit without cutting up any bodywork in the rear too keep it looking stock.

I'm using a 914 gearbox which is already installed and the rear of the bellhousing is at the stock 4 speed location. I can't move it any further forward without hacking into the torsion tubes ... and then there is the low sump ... don't want to raise the rear of the bug up. I've heard the 914 gearbox can take about 300 hp/300 tq without killing itself.

The pipes / rad / wiring are minor to me ... just have to make it fit first !
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazylongboarder
As long as you can push enough fuel to the motor ...

The car has built every thing down to the cryo treated crank, sleeved block, forged pistons and ported heads and everything else you can think of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axl
I think I am going to go this route [of a Subaru engine] instead . I was already planning on having a custom tube chassis floorpan constructed , so this will help a lot in the install .
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.studiotuning.net/subynotch
After taking some measurements, I noticed the stock intercooler would hang over my transmission, but I would have to cut out my entire parcel shelf to get it to fit. I didn't want to cut up the notch, so there was going to be some movement of parts.

Here is what I did to get the motor to fit in the stock engine bay.
Flipped intake manifold around
Relocated intercooler
Relocated alternator
Cut and rewelded stock turbo wastegate ~ 1 inch
Flipped around stock fuel line/rail
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions(TwilightChild)
So i need the motor, and the adapter plate, various plumbing needs to be run, as well as some piping for exhaust and my custom air to water intercooler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions(BugaRu)
...and best fit of them is the 2.2 Your need to taylor your water lines, and do something creative with your air intake ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom'72
don't know how exactly to attach the vacuum hoses yet
I understand fully this is doable. I understand there are no (or few) regrets by those who have done it. I am okay with Subaru in general. I like some of their cars although I haven't driven one since considering the purchase of a Brat back in '86. (I bought a Jetta GLI instead which started my VW ownership.)

There just seems to be an inexact science to this. An engine move of an inch or two, adapting the desired tranny, cutting aprons, getting fuel to the engine, installing a radiator and plumbing ...

I didn't read anyone saying this was a bad idea--just a bad idea for me.

Oh, I'm sure I could go to a speed shop or a custom shop or a ricer shop and have it done. But that would (1) change the installation costs and (2) require me to make many return trips to the installer. Why the latter? Because I guarantee you anyone within two hours of me who has done this is a private DIY'er and not a shop, and a shop will be doing this on a trial-and-error basis as it will be their first time.

I know some folks in the Euro-Asian crowd with similar inabilities as me making return trips for turbo tuning. That is one reason why I will probably supercharge my '02 Cabrio rather than turbocharging it.

Do you know what would probably be my first engine to build (or rebuild) if our next house has a garage? A stock 1600 T1. And even if it goes all fine and dandy, it will probably not go into anything but an experimental ratwagen.

That is where I am, and I think that is all that was being referred to since it was I who posed the hypothetical question in the first place.

I still haven't said no water-cooled engines. But words like "easy" and pronouns like "someone" isn't going to convince me because I know my limitations and I don't know very many someones. At this point, the odds of me going the Suby (or rotary) route are only above 0% if one is willing to go out enough decimal places.
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Old November 17th 2005, 13:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thelazerviking
This plus this = this.
Gertie?

Aren't 92mm cylinders more risky than 90.5mm as vujade suggested?
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Old November 18th 2005, 01:20
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As far as I know, you can build a completely streetable 94mm piston engine. 1914's are considered to be extremely reliable and are used as daily grinds. There's a couple guys on TS with street 2332s.

I brought up a 2110 as being my street motor during the GVP grand opening, and I was told to just go all the way to 2332...as it's completely feasible with the right cam and heads....

You can spend $5.5K from www.calperformancelab.com and get a tranny and urethane mounts etc. He has an ad on the Samba, and there was a thread on TS with him, Chico and another guy talking about performance/reliability of thier motors....

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie....php?id=152257

I would consider them....as that's $6K for a 2L WITH tranny and everything INSTALLED.....
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Old November 18th 2005, 23:31
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Thumbs up

I highly recommend Calperformancelab!! I in fact own thier 2110 long block. Awesome guys and great parts and quality! I did alotta research before i got the 2110 they clearly came out on top as far as customer service and positive reviews.. other shops...search on STF for thier name and theres more complaints than good write ups. Nothing but positive for calperformancelab. Any questions you have about them ask me. Id be happy to tell you my experience.
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Old November 19th 2005, 00:44
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Having just built my 1st type 4, I can say that I think I am done with Type 1's. I would go with the 2056 T4. They are far better built than the Type 1. 5 bolt flywheel to crank vs 1 gland nut and 4 pins, thru bolts vs studs for case/bearing torque, spin on filter stock vs pick-up screen only stock, 94 mm cylinders stock vs 85.5, more cooling fin area than a type 1, Better torque curve, longer lasting, cooler temps, etc, etc. The more you look, the more you like.
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Old November 21st 2005, 03:08
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I selected $8,000 for this thread for two reasons.

First, another thread was bouncing all over the place depending on the importance of cost in the project. This price point is somewhat in the middle of what the budget may be when the time comes.

Second, it is a price point that is difficult for a fully built Type 4 including exhaust. Below are some sample quotes from Shop Talk Forums:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOPGUN63
Jake, How much is a 2270 going for now a days?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MASSIVE TYPE IV
Most sell between 8-10K and up to 13.5 with developments and EFI..
Now I realize the question was about a 2270 while NO_H20's suggestion is a 2056. But, from a different STF's thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MASSIVE TYPE IV
The 2016 MAY be a possibility as a full build- but it'll cost just as much labor as a 2270 that makes 40HP more... They take the same amount of my time.
This is not an empty exercize on my part. I enjoy all of the suggestions. I have learned a lot from the above and combined with what I have been learning including from Dyno Day recently, the right decision for me is becoming clear.

At the same time, I don't want to call Jake or any of the suggested Type 1 builders until I know exactly where I stand financially. There was conjecture on other threads on this and other forums that similar displacement Type 1 and Type 4 engines would cost similarly to each other. It seems this myth is now busted.

If my budget becomes $6,000 or $10,000, I think I have a grasp on what I would do. The $8,000 budget seems to be difficult for a correctly built Type 4 and more than enough for a correctly built Type 1.

Above all, it seems I will have nice options regardless of my future budget. Thanks to all who responded. It has been great for me.
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