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Old September 17th 2008, 23:49
CHB73SB CHB73SB is offline
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944 struts?

would i be able to use these struts and be able to fit 17x7's within the fender i am trying to avoid buying overly expensive struts. i was hoping that w/ these struts and spindles i could get a good enough ride height? Is this doable? almost forgott i drive a '73 super.

Last edited by CHB73SB; September 17th 2008 at 23:50.
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Old September 18th 2008, 04:38
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Xellex Xellex is offline
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as far as I know, it's not possible for alot of reasons. I see you live in the USA... just get the maxx struts from topline parts... they are far from "overly expensive" and they are designed exactly for what you have in mind.
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Old September 18th 2008, 06:28
CHB73SB CHB73SB is offline
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yeah i know that is what i am thinking i am going to have to go with i did just get my Sport+ Springs in the mail from them the other day but have not had time to get them on the car yet. I just got these for the time being untill i could afford the MAxx struts i think they should give me about 1 1/2" of lowering and from what it said 10% better spring rate.
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Old September 19th 2008, 07:12
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Originally Posted by CHB73SB View Post
would i be able to use these struts and be able to fit 17x7's within the fender i am trying to avoid buying overly expensive struts. i was hoping that w/ these struts and spindles i could get a good enough ride height? Is this doable? almost forgott i drive a '73 super.
I have 944/924S struts on a '74 1303. The struts are a direct replacement for the VW ones and I did so because the spring platforms were corroded/collapsing. The only difference is that the bottom ball joint connection is too large on the Porker bits so you will have to use one of the conversion ones supplied by Kersher if you use the VW bottom arm. With the 944 strut you get an additional camber adjuster on the top of the two fixing bolts. Also, you will have to swap over the top mount as the Porker one is a 4 bolt fixing. I redrilled the inner wing for the 4 bolt fixing as I wanted the much larger Porker top mount rubber. The strut is the same size as the VW one so to get the vehicle lower you will have to use lowering springs and short stroke dampers - mine are Spax PSX.
I don't if the 17x7s will fit because that will depend on a mass of other data but that size of wheel will mean too much rubber up front for decent/safe handling.

evilC
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Old June 24th 2009, 08:03
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kafer.chris kafer.chris is offline
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evilC you star that is the info i was searchin for ......

any pics ?

i got the complete front end from 944 and was thinking i could use it and fit a adjustable kit then just swop them over fit 17mm bottom ball joint and away i go...

i got the bottom a arms too..could i press the ball joint out of these or are they not a press in fitting??

cheers chris
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Old June 24th 2009, 08:49
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Originally Posted by kafer.chris View Post
evilC you star that is the info i was searchin for ......

any pics ?

i got the complete front end from 944 and was thinking i could use it and fit a adjustable kit then just swop them over fit 17mm bottom ball joint and away i go...

i got the bottom a arms too..could i press the ball joint out of these or are they not a press in fitting??

cheers chris
Hi Chris,

I've just responded to Pantswagen on the 944 installation so please read that as well. PM me with your e-mail address and I will return some photos (I am useless at posting photos on forums).

Just to expand on the bottom arm TCA thing. I used a 50x30x3 RHS section with sleeves (48mm tube reamed out for the standard inner bush and 1 1/2" tube reamed out for the anti-roll bar) for the poly bushes. At the outer end I have a 6mm plate drilled for the bolt on 944 bottom ball joint. The whole thing was easy to fabricate and although it is probably over-engineered with too thick sections it looks intrinically right as you will see.

On extending the steering track rods, I cut the threaded ends out of the existing ones that I sweated and welded into some 1/2" pipe that again looks about right but is very strong.

Clive
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Old June 29th 2009, 10:02
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I was just about to start a new thread, and noticed this thread going on.

I have been dwelling over the 944 strut conversion for my 2 bolt SB. I do have have a set of Max Struts..

I have a couple of set of 944 struts laying around and figured it could not hurt to investigate based on the fact that they are so similiar.

Here is what I can tell you:

- There seems to be two type of strut housings for the 944/924/944S. One is the standard crimped on cap, non-removable, and the other is a screw on cap, that must look like the max or SB.

- It seems that the early 944 stuff seems to have the replaceable catrige and bolt on cap. The later 944 stuff, seems to have the crimped cap, these are the one I have.

- I would think using the early is the easier route, if you found a koni type insert, like the MK1 style.

-If your using the later stuff, it gets tricky as you need to cut the strut housing cap off. Koni uses a system where a bolt goes through a 14mm hole at the bottom of the strut housing and keeps everything snug. The part that I have not been able to figure out is what strut insert to use. I have been looking all weekend, when I had free time, but have not made any progress.

The MK1 does not attach via the bottom as the 944 insert. I could not figure out if the MK2 is different. The 944 while it attaches properly, is way too long for our application. I assume there is another insert, just have not found it yet for our application. From reading, I know different applications can be swapped but we need to find one that attaches via the bottom, and is the same size as the MK1, valving can be customized so not to concerned.. Most likely need to have the tops machined like the SB struts inserts if your going the stock route too.

From there you can go crazy, and use Ground Control sleeves, and eibach springs to have a somewhat customize set up..

Any thoughts?
Alex
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Old June 29th 2009, 20:09
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Hi

Just a side note on the additional camber adjusting screws.

I had some 2 bolt struts made up locally with smaller springs etc for my daily 1303. On standard VW struts there is a provision made for the top bolt to be made into camber screws, you need to file out strut to allow the movement, the ears are already there for the offset washers on the camber bolt, I was able to use both adjustments to slightly narrow my track, made the inner lower control arm adjustment go to full negative and then wound the screw on the strut to give me correct camber back again.

Can I also say that apart from the benefits that the 2 bolt struts have, 944 stubs can be used and negative roll radius, which may have been negated with different offset wheels anyhow, I don't like 2 bolt struts.

My reasons, cant go as low without tierod arms fouling body (and bending) and flip it kit wont improve this and the steering drag link nut hits on the lower control arms in some situations, and my car is not stupidly low.

Steve
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Old June 30th 2009, 06:09
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Gentlemen,

I have converted our 1303 to 924S struts (screw top 944 units) relatively easy. I bought a complete 924S undercarriage, which was fortunate since the the 1303 one were crumbling (there is a noticeable difference in quality between the VW and Porsche items). The Spax PSX kit of springs and dampers I bought for the 1303 fit the 924S/944 one exactly, which is good because they were designed for the lighter weight so no special 944 units were required. Even if I had the crimp type strut I would cut the top off and fabricate a screw on cap as it makes damper changing so much easier.
The steering arm is set lower and further outboard. The track rod needs to enter from the top so I had an internally tapered bush made up and increased the size of the steering arm hole to fit the bush. On reflection, it would have been easier and better to bore/ream a 14mm plain hole in the steering arm and use a heim joint rod end. That would also have the effect of lowering the track rod arm by at least 15mm thus giving the extra clearance that Steve was looking for. The track rod also needs lengthening by about 50mm per side so I used the standard ends sweated and welded into a larger diameter trackrod that doesn't look so flimsy.
I fabricated a new Track Control Arm so that I could use the 944 bottom ball joint (I hate press in ball joints with a passion - it is so much easier to bolt a new one on instead of finding someone with a 10T press on a Sunday PM say) That was much easier than I first thought. The inner pivot and strut give you a choice of camber adjustment and overall a much bigger range as you would expect.
IMO the 944 strut route is an easy one for the 1303. I would guess that there is a reasonable stockpile of 944 struts at all the aftermarket suspension suppliers that would also double as quality 1303 legs. There really isn't a better alternative.

Clive
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Old June 30th 2009, 17:57
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Xellex Xellex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bug@5speed(US) View Post
I was just about to start a new thread, and noticed this thread going on.

- It seems that the early 944 stuff seems to have the replaceable catrige and bolt on cap. The later 944 stuff, seems to have the crimped cap, these are the one I have.

-If your using the later stuff, it gets tricky as you need to cut the strut housing cap off. Koni uses a system where a bolt goes through a 14mm hole at the bottom of the strut housing and keeps everything snug. The part that I have not been able to figure out is what strut insert to use. I have been looking all weekend, when I had free time, but have not made any progress.

Alex
Alex, I'm not 100% sure, but I think you first have to know exactly what kind of 944 spindle you are going to use.
Because those early struts (bolt on cap) are made for the pre '86 porsche 944 and 924, spindles - the ones with the same bolt pattern as the 1303 ones.
Now, for the newer struts, with the crimped cap, you have to use the post '86 944 spindles (the ones that are not bolt-on to the bug).

In either case, why would you look for alternatives (from other cars) for the strut inserts? That koni 944 kit is IMHO the most awesome :P And i really don't think it's too long, as you said. I think it's the same length as the beetle or stock porsche 944 one.
And they say on the koni website, that you can have them custom made, with your desired valving. So just tell them you want the koni kit for the 944 (late or early) strut, BUT with the valving made exactly like their own KONI1303 yellow front damper. (the one used in the kerscher assembly also).

I took the liberty to post these pics, from the "aussieveedubbers" forums. I hope the owner doesn't mind:

The last pic shows the full kit, you can order it with or w/o the old struts that you have to use, and you can also order it without the springs.
This is what I would have ordered, if Lee @ L.A. Performance wouldn't have helped me.
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Last edited by Xellex; June 30th 2009 at 18:09.
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  #11  
Old June 30th 2009, 22:36
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Bug@5speed(US) Bug@5speed(US) is offline
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Xellex,

Couple of good points you made, and as I continued you research the jumped at me..

You are right about the pre 86 944 stuff. I checked last night and I have two sets of 87+ struts.. which as you alluded are not compatible with the 2 bolt SB stuff.. the whole skinny vs thick.

I has the struts laying around, and I had a few other parts from a younger brother's honda crx that I wanted to play with.. as in adjustable collar and springs like the one in the pics..

Incidently that top mount is made by who? Looks adjustable..Is it?

So from your experience, the 944 strut insert is the same relative size as the 1303? I have read that some 944 guys were using 1303 in the pre 86 strut.. but they seemed to imply a little drop..

Either way I am stuck now because while I do have the later stuff, I can't use it on my 944 NA spindles or my SB spindles.. I have a set of front arms and kersher bj that I wanted to use with this idea, and save it for back up.. or my other project..

Seems like I need to barter with the 944 folks.. to get some pre 86 stuff.. and trade my later spindles and struts assemblies..

BTW those pics you uploaded were very helpful
Alex
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  #12  
Old July 1st 2009, 04:53
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Originally Posted by Bug@5speed(US) View Post
Xellex,

...............
So from your experience, the 944 strut insert is the same relative size as the 1303? I have read that some 944 guys were using 1303 in the pre 86 strut.. but they seemed to imply a little drop..

...................Alex
The strut that I used was a Porsche 924S (1986 - 1988) that was the early one with the dampere insert. Its interesting that Porsche continued with the early parts in the 924S in parallel with the later 944.

The 1303 insert is a perfect fit into the 924S/early 944 strut. If there was any drop when using the 944 strut then that could have only come from a lowered spring platform. When I checked the spring platforms on the 1303 and 924S/944 were in the same position. The damper insert can have no effect on the drop.

Clive
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Old July 1st 2009, 16:58
sbeetle73 sbeetle73 is offline
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Actually if you take the 944 strut and use a threaded collar with a 10" spring you have about a 1.5-2" drop off the start along with more adjustability based on the threaded collar. As for shocks I purchased the 944 drop in units from Koni (sports - hydraulic units; actually same part number for the superbugs, so they have been designed for our vehicles.), I find gas units are way to stiff for our light front end cars. The advantage of Konis is that they have a constant rate throuought the entire stroke so if you lower your car you dont end up damaging the shock as long as you don't bottom out which wont happen with a bump stop. This is my setup for now, waiting to complete the car to try. Just trying to figure out the rate of the spring since there is much conflicting info. Some say 80, other say up to 120 is fine. Any take on the spring rates?
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Old July 2nd 2009, 05:22
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................... Just trying to figure out the rate of the spring since there is much conflicting info. Some say 80, other say up to 120 is fine. Any take on the spring rates?
I measured a 35 year old spring that I took off and with some very basic equipment measuring it at 80lb/inch so I would guess a new spring would be ~85lb/inch. The new Spax ones I put on appear to be progressive and I don't have the equipment to do those. However, commonly the uprating value is usually around +25-30% so a 100-110 lb/inch linear rate spring should be a good starting point for a heavy car (as opposed to a lightened car). The 20 year old 924S spring was 140lb/inch that I felt was much too big a jump over the standard one. I did consider cutting the standard spring to acheive the 40-50mm lowering plus the rate increase as the standard spring is plain ended but I didn't get very far with that as I had to cut the damper rod to get one of the legs out and nicked the spring with the grinder so I was into buying two new springs in any case.

Clive
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