GermanLook Forums  

Go Back   GermanLook Forums > Technical Section > Engines

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old November 2nd 2005, 16:47
oasis's Avatar
oasis oasis is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: timonium, md usa
Posts: 1,290
type 4 starter engine

Is it smart to consider buying a Type 4 engine ready-to-go (or close) for a short-term solution and as a basis for a long-term solution in my 1302, or should I just hold off and get the Type 4 built the way I want it when I am ready for it?

I am interested in a mild, easy-to-maintain engine in the 120-150 HP and Ft-Lbs range for spirited daily driving. I am guessing a 2056 or a 2270 is the most likely final solution. The car would see residential here-and-there driving as well as interstate driving.

If the answer to the question is yes, what do I consider when looking for that engine?

Would one of these be a decent basis? (If unknown, what would I ask to find out?)

Rebuilt 2.0

Turnkey 1.8

Another 1.8

I offered a typical array of ads one might find, although there aren't usually too many ads for complete Type 4 engines.

Am I better off looking for an engine that was already in a 356/914/912/411/412 than in a Type 2 (I know to avoid Vanagon engines)?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old November 3rd 2005, 15:29
Supa Ninja Supa Ninja is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 627
This where you have to look at what you want and decide if you can wait for it. The expensive part of going type IV in a type I powered car is the intial expense of the conversion. You got to get cooling whether its a DTM, upright conversion, or Porsche style. Exhaust is not cheap, a BAS header with shipping over $400 plus you got the muffler to figure out. Carbs with type 4 manifolds, brand new Weber IDF's are a pretty penny nowadays. External oil coolers, modifing decklids for clearance. Mating the engine to the tranny can be pricey too, 210-215mm bus flywheel, lightned, resurfaced, a clutch. God help you if your going to use a 901 box cause then you'll need a 914 flywheel and a 911/914 clutch and even a stock setup is a bit of money.
I've had my 914 for almost 3 years, i've put 55,000 miles on it, and for me that is a miracle cause I break type 1 motors, built/stock, fresh/tired I break them. Now is it worth all that initial expense to put that kind of engine into a bug, and if it's a stock 2.0L it will only make if your lucky 100hp. Built type IV's are another huge expense on top of all of that.
There is alternative power plants too and I'm glad there are several guys on here who have already converted to scooby power. I read all their posts with a open mind. I think that is a solution for most bang for your buck but like everthing you do to these cars there will be negatives for the pluses. The most obvious is having to install a radiator.
Research, research, research!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old November 4th 2005, 09:22
oasis's Avatar
oasis oasis is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: timonium, md usa
Posts: 1,290
Wow, my head is spinning. This is by far a more detailed answer than I was expecting ... or looking for. Perhaps, the entire picture of what I want is necessary. The funny thing is I'm not really looking for the biggest bang or the biggest bang for my buck. When I say 120-150 HP and FT-LBS, it is a pure guess. Whatever, it seems that hasn't simplified anything.

Brevity has never been a strong suit with me. I'll do my best but I apologize in advance for this post's length as I go through Supa Ninja's thorough response point by point.

It is important I point out up front I know at least 90% of GL.com members know more about mechanics than yours truly. I've been a member of this forum 20 months longer than I've been an air-cooled owner. There are many articles and sites I have read several times because of my technical deficiency. And they will be re-read some more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supa Ninja
This where you have to look at what you want and decide if you can wait for it.
Oh, I know I have to wait. Buying the car took longer than expected. Changing the suspension, brakes, wheels and tires took longer than expected. Updating the seating took longer than expected. Some of the ancillary items still haven't been taken care of whereas some have.

What do I want? This is a very fluid answer but at this typing I would say I am 75% sure I want a Type IV (2270cc: 50%, 2056cc: 20%, something else: 5%). These percentages have dropped given how expensive Type IV engines are. I know about their durability and torque and all the rest of it, and all I can say is that is why I am still at 75% on the sure scale.

The fact Type IV engines are approximately three times more expensive than Type I engines means I could go through three of the latter for the same outlay over the same time frame. Also, since I got 300,000 miles out of my '86 Jetta without needing a rebuild until I sold it 16 years later, I don't think I will be as harsh on whatever I end up getting.

I'd say I'm 20% sure on the Type I engine and 5% sure on something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supa Ninja
The expensive part of going type IV in a type I powered car is the intial expense of the conversion. You got to get cooling whether its a DTM, upright conversion, or Porsche style. Exhaust is not cheap, a BAS header with shipping over $400 plus you got the muffler to figure out. Carbs with type 4 manifolds, brand new Weber IDF's are a pretty penny nowadays. External oil coolers, modifing decklids for clearance. Mating the engine to the tranny can be pricey too, 210-215mm bus flywheel, lightned, resurfaced, a clutch. God help you if your going to use a 901 box cause then you'll need a 914 flywheel and a 911/914 clutch and even a stock setup is a bit of money.
First off, I thought an upright conversion was a separate issue to and necessary for the cooling method in a 1302. See? That's Dr. Technoklutz (me) in action. The cooling method will be determined by who ultimately is building the engine. (If I do anything myself as a first engine, it will be a mild 1776cc Type I or just a straight rebuild of what I already have.)

Many of the other items listed are noted and accounted for, and like the cooling system will be taken care of by the engine builder. The real exception here is the exhaust. I have my preferences despite not having researched exact prices. None of them are in the states, so I continue to lurk hoping a proper (to me) alternative becomes available.

I don't know what basis RAT's "B" transmissions is but that is a near certainty for me if I stick with my Type IV plans. I haven't ruled out an LSD or a five-speed but those are details to be decided later. Porsche trannies require too much one-off fabrication for me to even consider.

The mention of modified decklids means major alarms are now going off in my head. I thought I read this would not be necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supa Ninja
There is alternative power plants too and I'm glad there are several guys on here who have already converted to scooby power. I read all their posts with a open mind. I think that is a solution for most bang for your buck but like everthing you do to these cars there will be negatives for the pluses. The most obvious is having to install a radiator.
Yup, I've been reading. It would be more likely I would go this route on my next Beetle than this one. I am also partial to Mazda's rotary having owned one and knowing the reputation it has for using oil is bogus. Having said that, I do recognize many of these engines are abused and there is a shortage of mechanics who know diddly about them.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I started this thread with a curiosity based on whether I should (1) buy, install and drive the basis for my eventual conversion, (2) buy, install and drive a stock Type IV now, and deal with my conversion separately later, or (3) drive and maintain my current stock Type I until I'm ready for the plunge.

The first two would have required some coaching on buying such an engine. Hence, the inclusion of some sample ads. The latter of the three will probably also include a rebuild. My stocker has never been rebuilt and will probably need it before anything else is ready.

Hopefully, the completeness of this post will foster suggestions and even debates rather than scatter everyone ducking for cover.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old November 4th 2005, 13:29
Supa Ninja Supa Ninja is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 627
Quote:
Originally Posted by oasis

The mention of modified decklids means major alarms are now going off in my head. I thought I read this would not be necessary.
If a Fat Porsche shroud is used, yes. Most likely you'll end up with a RAT Type IV and a DTM will be the means of cooling(no mods to the deck lid needed).
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old November 5th 2005, 18:34
73notch's Avatar
73notch 73notch is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: orange county
Posts: 104
i was in your situation when i went through my type 4 phase. I wanted a 2270, blah blah. but things can get a bit overwhelming, i just name a few problem areas....
-lifters!
-heads are freggin expensive, with a 2270, the heads will be the weakpoint, so u have to determine how far u should go with headwork$$$$$$$
-exhaust, now that u are at a 2270, and spent $$$$$$$ on those heads^^ u gotta throw down some bills for a decent exhaust, u dont wanna restrict those expensive heads with a run of the mill stock bus exhaust.

If you go the type 4 route, and if i were to go the type 4 route, i would get a stock 2 liter engine, run it til it dies, and put in another used one. The most i would change would be
-carburation
-cams
-home port/polish
-build ur own shroud, using the next gen thing

then when you can, swap the 2.0 heads for 1.8 carburated heads. they have the same outside diameter as the 2.0 jugs.

and if you want to make it even easier, sell the bug and buy a type 3, then you wont even have to make a shroud.

btw, i ended up going the subaru route.....
-Ryan
__________________
www.subynotch.com
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old November 7th 2005, 04:46
oasis's Avatar
oasis oasis is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: timonium, md usa
Posts: 1,290
When I was car shopping, I considered a Type 3. There were so few in good enough shape available or worth bringing to the east coast, it wasn't even funny. There was one Notch in Vancouver I considered, two Fasties, and a Type 34 Ghia I agreed to buy except the scoundrel decided I needed to buy "$10,000 worth of parts for an additional $4,000" as well. That addendum killed the deal.

Four cars in more than a year of searching was fairly daunting.

Now having said that, I am shocked by your answer. I have been reading the Subaru threads and I have seen your site. So with all of that going on, I'm surprised you are suggesting an engine which may make 85-100 HP.

For all I know, 85-100 HP may indeed be enough. My wife's Golf TDI is only listed at 90 HP if memory serves me correctly. I think the torque is in the 150 FT-LB range, however. Her Golf is clearly heavier than my little 1302. I am hoping I get to be a passenger in a bunch of cars at Dyno Day.

I hate being clueless.

I can handle waiting. At some point I can handle the necessary expense -- depending what it is, and obviously, up to a point.

Are you saying the expense makes the 2270 undesirable? Are you saying there are going to be longevity issues after making such a financial commitment?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old November 7th 2005, 08:58
Bad bug's Avatar
Bad bug Bad bug is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Jamaica
Posts: 293
Oasis go t4. Their are a couple of guy's hear in jamaica that have subarus in their bugs but their conversions was not done properly, these guys are waiting on disaster to happen. I for one though about a suby transplant for my standard after seeing what was necessary for the conversion i went t4.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old November 7th 2005, 15:28
73notch's Avatar
73notch 73notch is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: orange county
Posts: 104
thats kinda what im saying, all the extra work and stuff for the 2270 just dosnt make sense to me when for the power..
the 2l should make a good 100 hp give or take.
the 2270 that jake makes, last i checked makes 150-160? right?
thats with dyno tuning, and some stuff we dont know. id say once you get it running, youll be making 130-140 out of it. i dont think the huge expense is worth that amount of power increase.
Its more of a simplicity reason in my mind i guess. when you drive your stock 1600 around, it just....feels reliable and works. if you put 4 grand of parts into that 1600, it would be hella fast, but i for one would be scared of it breaking and id be **** outta luck. it could be even worse with the type 4. But think if you had a 2 liter t4. it was a stock engine size. You didnt do much work to it, blah blah. If it blew, they are cheap. I dont know about you, but i got two, 2l t4 engines back then, complete for 100 bucks a piece.

btw i never suggested a subaru conversion, i know its alot of work, and i think my site shows that. Im not saying ones better than the other either, you look at the specs and compare the good and bad and make your own choice.
__________________
www.subynotch.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old November 7th 2005, 21:03
oasis's Avatar
oasis oasis is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: timonium, md usa
Posts: 1,290
I think Bad bug was really responding to me in that I was following the Suby threads while asking about Type 4's, rather than intimating you, 73notch, were suggesting a Suby conversion for me.

I actually have done some very basic research with regards to a Suby conversion for a future Vanagon even before I bought my Super. I am leaning towards a TDI if/when that day comes. Unless a Suby conversion proves surprisingly simple, it would be backburnered 'til my next Super.

Meanwhile, thanks 73notch for the clarification. I understand where you are coming from. I appreciate the advice.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old November 8th 2005, 01:30
oicdn's Avatar
oicdn oicdn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by 73notch
the 2270 that jake makes, last i checked makes 150-160? right?
thats with dyno tuning, and some stuff we dont know. id say once you get it running, youll be making 130-140 out of it. i dont think the huge expense is worth that amount of power increase.
EXACTLY MY POINT. Not just picking on Jake...if I were going T4, it would hands down be a motor by him...I just think you can do better with 4 grand than an AC motor. People claim "well it's not a VW anymore..." But when we're going GL, is it really one anymore either? It has Porsche brakes, a Porsche motor, Porsche wheels(contact patch) and suspension that is tuned FAR BEYOND what the car was intended for, super or not, I think GL cars go FAR beyond the term "spirited driving".

If you're gonna spend $4K, why not spend it on something STOCK that produces 200HP (scoobie) and you don't have to worry about valves or any other VW engine quirks. Now, I'm probably not going scooby, but I'm just speaking from an open minded perspective.....

HUGE expense, for hardly any gain...reletively speaking of course...
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old November 8th 2005, 03:05
oasis's Avatar
oasis oasis is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: timonium, md usa
Posts: 1,290
Four grand? I don't think a 2270 is four grand.

In my case, I'm not looking for max HP. I know 200 is too much for me because a 1.8T doesn't make 200 in stock form and that's plenty in an A4 platform. Given how much lighter a Super is, I think I could come up with a comparative scaling of what HP and torque I might desire given the known natures (to me) of a 2.0, a 1.8T, an a TDI and compensating for the lighter weight.

73notch correctly surmised I want a reliable engine. I don't want one to be capable of 150 MPH and keeping me tied up every weekend tinkering with it.

A water-cooler in stock form is still going to require tinkering because it is unnatural in a bug. There are special needs for cooling and plumbing. The balance of the car will be affected by the extra weight. This will require "tuning" the suspension, or replacing it more often.

I admire the pioneers who embark on this course or similar.

I am not a pioneer.

I want a "normal" pocket rocket -- that is, one that might have been offered by VW today if the Super were still being made.

Do you know how fast my Cabrio goes? Neither do I. I have never taken it to its max in the four years I have owned it. I know it will do more than 100 because I have driven it that fast, and there was more to give. I know it will happily sustain 90 because there has been occasion for me to do that, too.

But that is not my normal driving. I like knowing I can push it if I need to. The only reason I want to get a s/c for it is so I can punch it up more quickly if the situation calls for it. My Cabrio is in no particular hurry to achieve those speeds even though once there, it offers no complaint.

That's what I want out of my Super. Pep to shake loose bothersome slow pokes who adhere to speed limits too closely. Speed to handle any lane on any interstate at any given time. Reliability such that routine maintenance is all that is needed for the entire car, and anything else needed is non-routine.

I like the low-end torque of my TDI, the punch of my 1.8T, and the hasslefree nature of my 2.0.

Price was not mentioned because it is fourth in line. That does not mean price is no object. It simply means I'm okay paying a bit extra to get all three attributes. If getting all three attributes is too prohibitive, I will then lower my standards.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old November 8th 2005, 03:49
73notch's Avatar
73notch 73notch is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: orange county
Posts: 104
id recommend a mild 1915 type 1 or a mild 2L type 4 then.
the 94mm being unreliable is BS
both would be good motors, i only have hands on with the 1915 though.
__________________
www.subynotch.com
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old November 8th 2005, 08:22
oicdn's Avatar
oicdn oicdn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 174
$4K comment was just an amount thrown out there...I think that number came up when he mentioned throwing $4K at a 1600.....I made a post about this on The Samba a while back on this:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=119643

I don't think the water box conversion is too much a big deal in terms of suspension tuning/replacement. I mean you're adding what, weight of what another person weighs to the car? That's hardly worth noting if you have the power to compensate for it. Balance isn't too far off as far as what I've read from the shoptalk forums. Cooling hasn't been a HUGE issue, but it didn't seem anything out of the ordinary...

But like stated you said 200HP is far more than what you need, then a GOOD BUILD 1914 or 2L Type 1 is probably the best bet....a buddy of mine has a 1914 that can lift the front wheels of his bug off the ground, and in terms of maint, all he does is change the oil. His 60-100 is INSANE fast, but he said he'd never CRUISE at anything over 80....

I think it's pretty sad how you spend all this money on a bulletproof motor, have all the power there and you have the ability/power to sustain 100MPH, but your motor doesn't have the cooling capacity to sustain over 80mph. Kinda ***-backwards IMO....

Last edited by oicdn; November 8th 2005 at 08:25.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old November 8th 2005, 15:30
Supa Ninja Supa Ninja is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 627
A complete JE20 turbo weigths in at 275, same as a Type IV plus the added weight of radiator, plumbing and water. So weight is definitely not an issue with that engine.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old November 8th 2005, 16:17
massIVe 79 vert's Avatar
massIVe 79 vert massIVe 79 vert is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Commerce, GA
Posts: 138
OOps,This is Jake, Beth was logged in on my computer.
__________________
"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill today because they pissed me off!"

Beth Raby
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
© www.GermanLook.net 2002-2017. All Rights Reserved