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  #16  
Old November 21st 2005, 14:23
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The Type 4 will last far longer than the Type 1.
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  #17  
Old November 22nd 2005, 06:54
Eurolook71 Eurolook71 is offline
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Wow, I guess I just had my own reality check that came with this post. I've always dreamed of a T4 motor, 1911 or 2056, yet with EFI. 13K for a 2270? !@#$%! DUDE! I think everything that goes on over there in GA is awesome, and the R&D dept is far more than anyone could expect when the subject of air-cooled flat-four motors comes up. But too spend 8K on a N/A 2L and still have only 4 gears just makes me wanna put the whole idea of "massive" far behind me, leaving tear drop stain on the ground all along the way. Unless I'm just being typical. I mean honestly, I've only really seen one "built" T4 in action, and it was for 12+ seconds. If 8K makes my bug go for 10+ years w/ regular maintence and still gets the tuner crowd to say "holy crap it's air-cooled..." then I guess I'll just shut my trap, that is until I can experience for myself this T4 revolution.....damnit here comes that $$$ thing again....grrrrr
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  #18  
Old November 22nd 2005, 23:09
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do the math on building a TF-1 cased engine, using a flanged TI crank (Not chinese made) and all the things needed to create a TI even similarly comparative to the TIV. You will see that it'll take all aftermarket parts to make it happen and the cost will be within 10% of the cost of a TIV. In fact that TIV may be cheaper.
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  #19  
Old November 23rd 2005, 02:30
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Then, how are all these companies offering a 2L+ for $5K WITH trannies, etc...if all you get with a TIV is a small 2L, and no tranny?

Not knocking the TIV, but like stated, that cost factor seems to be pretty deterring. My buddy spent $5K on his 1914 set-up including Pro-Street tranny and 2500lb clutch. He was saying he coulda done a 2332 for the same price, but he bought the 1914 before he really knew anything and thought 1914 was the "largest streetable/reliable" motor you could get. He never adjusted his valves, and just done regular oil changes...it was his daily grind too....

$13K for a 2L TIV or $5K and get a tranny that has been abused, raced, in traffic and has around 45K+ miles thus far of just oil changes...that route, seems like the obvious logical choice.
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  #20  
Old November 23rd 2005, 12:00
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Thats easy..

The 2L TI has a Chinese crankshaft, sand cast aluminum case made also in a 3rd world country and about every other part of the same quality (or lack thereof)

Comparing that 2L TI engine to a sL TIV engine isn't even in the same spectrum- I said that building the two engines EQUALLY would cost the same and I wasn't talking about HP wise....

Crappy TI parts that were only getting worse (and of course cheaper AND worse) were the main reason why I stepped away from the TI foundation.
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  #21  
Old November 23rd 2005, 15:08
R2.0 R2.0 is offline
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I think we ought to compare apples and apples here. IIRC, the $10k-$12k figure thrown around for a 2270 T4 was for a custom engine assembled with a lot of hands on involvement by a leader in T4 engine development and the owner of the company. Ask yourself what an engine hand assembled by Gene Berg would have cost?

Go to the Type 4 store and price out a 2056 kit. Soup to nuts, including exhaust, ignition, etc, comes to $6k. Pay a good assembler $2k and you are in budget.

Still expensive? Maybe, but I think it's important to make sure the numbers represent what they really are.

R2.0
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  #22  
Old November 23rd 2005, 16:42
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R2.0 thats an excellent post!

More and more people are buying my kit and having a local builder assemble it.. Thats been a big benefit of the store and it alows me to work on super cool projects in the engine side of the house at the same time because the simple jobs can be bought in kit form and assembled so easily with my preparation and design..
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  #23  
Old November 23rd 2005, 19:04
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go out and buy a 2332 turn key with 200hp and a stock 1600 dp turn key, you have the best of both worlds still cheaper than a t4.

honestly, i couldnt see paying 10k for a fuggin engine regardless of how much power it makes, and they dont even make "crazy" power, they are just "more reliable" no offense, I said "I", there obviously are people out there that would.

i wouldnt even buy a fuggin gene berg engine.

also, keep in mind, horsepower is addicting, youre almost always going to want to go faster...

type 4s make sense to me, up to a certain point, but after near stock, they just dont.

-Ryan
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  #24  
Old November 23rd 2005, 19:34
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IF I were gonna spend over $10,000 I would spend an extra $5000
and buy a 4 Cylinder 911 motor. I company in California cuts out
the center 2 cylinders from a 3.6L 911 motor and turns it into a
realiable 200Hp 4 Cylinder 911 motor with dual overhead cams

I will most likely do a Type 4 in my Notch, because a T4 in the stock
config makes the most sense in a T3. You dont have to convert it to
upright so there is a big savings there... :agree:
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  #25  
Old November 24th 2005, 02:41
kleinporsche kleinporsche is offline
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You guys are nuts! a budget of 8k for an engine!? 10K for a TIV!??? And we are not talling about chassis upgrades (brakes, suspensions), transmission, wheels, the list goes on. Why don't you go and buy yourself a good whole Porsche 3.2L for around 17k!? Tabarnak! nowadays there is no modern car company that sells their "little" engines for such a big price.

Wake up, for that matter it is true that a complete subi ej20 sells for 450$,a ej20T for 650$ and a Twin Turbo with anougth power to tear up your transmission for 850$. Of course the problem is to have someone to install it but I'm just talking about the basic price before instalation. i was no big fan of Subi power but i'm thinking about it...

I'm a little disgusted. Don't get me wrong: I'm totally into German Look and what it implies, but I think that a beetle is a little Porsche, and it will stay a LITTLE Porsche, as long as you have fun with it. Then if you wan real power, serious handling, go with a real porsche, or you will end up paying twice the price of a porsche for a car that want's to be but never quite will... Ouf, feel better now that I let some steam out. Sorry guys, I know this doesn't help, it is just opinions.
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  #26  
Old November 24th 2005, 03:51
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'Kleinporsche' (whats in a name),

You obviously have totally NOT understood what drives most of us...

That is not the fact that we can't buy a 'real' porsche (or even would want one (I wouldn't, really)! I can and could have done so, many times, easily, but I don't want one for many reasons.
Do you really think that we can't add up numbers (costs) ourselves and have not realised we could have gotten a nice old 911 for the same money?
Why do people automatically assume that everybody thinks that a porsche is cooler to have than an old vw

For your consellation (sp?): most people don't understand why s/one else puts a lot of money into a bug or any aircooled old vw...

And as to your conception of the 'real' power and 'real' handling of a porsche versus one of 'our' cars: Mwhahahah!! please read up, your in for a big surprise...

Reagrds,
Walter

Last edited by Wally; November 24th 2005 at 03:56.
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  #27  
Old November 24th 2005, 05:02
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As the thread-starter, I feel that it is okay for me to reel the discussion back to its original premise. In the meantime, I hope we are having lively debates and not headed into anything mean-spirited.

First off, I have already made the changes in brakes and suspension. There may be an eventual tweak I want to do but that is so far down the road from here it's not even funny.

Second, I am not looking for crazy horsepower and I am not looking to being the biggest bad cat around. I do want plenty of giddy-up should I need it from a stand-still. And I want plenty of power so the only thing separating me and some other driver is the difference between me and that other driver (unless he chooses to drive an underpowered beast).

I do like the power curve of my stock engine; I just don't like how low it is. If it is doubled to tripled at the wheels, I would be desiring about 100-130 HP at 4100 RPMs and 140-200 LB-FT of torque at 2700.

I do not know an assembler of a Type 4 engine much less a good one. And that's regardless of price.

My long-time mechanic is willing to install whatever I decide on getting as long as it does not require fabrication. And they (at the shop) are willing to do any fixing or regular maintenance it would need. They are not willing to assemble anything, however.

My mechanic is willing to put me in touch with someone he knows who builds Type 1 engines. He has enough faith in this guy as a builder (and, perhaps, me as an anal retentive owner) he would back up that work with a year's guarantee.

I have not met with this cat yet so I appreciate the suggestions being bandied about as far as other builders of Type 1 engines are concerned.

(By the way, I happened to be at the Gene Berg site on another issue and wandered into the "engines" page. I did not see a 2110 listed. Perhaps that is because they are into the drag racing scene and a 2110 is not the best option for their typical customer.)

Anyone doing a search on my posts here and elsewhere (or possessing a strong memory) knows I had sort of thought a 2270 T4 was going to be my Super's engine. There are reasons I am starting to waver on this plan. None of those reasons have anything to do with a loss of respect I have for the T4 engine.

I stated in an earlier post within this thread saying "someone" can build it--whatever "it" is--is not workable in my situation.

If buying a kit and having someone build it is your best suggestion, I am all ears ... or eyes, I guess. But that someone needs to be named to stay within the parameters of my origianl thread.

To be fair, I did not mention having a potential lead on a T1 builder because (a) I still haven't met him, and (b) I wanted a fair fight between the T1 and T4 and any other solution offered.

So far, there have been three or four T1 builders mentioned and recommended. While a 2056 T4 was suggested, no builder was attached. The only builder I know is Jake, and I already posted excerpts of potential pricing with that route. (An interesting aside, I posted the question of alternative builders of T4 engines over a year ago at another site. Some bird brain there chided me about doing a search--as if I hadn't done it already. A year later I revisited that thread still without an answer. And I still didn't get one--even from the know-it-all bird brain.)

Again, I am doing a ballpark figure with the 8k. I have to see how my money turns over to know for sure what that figure is going to be. I think I know what I am going to do if that figure is higher or lower. Eight thou seems to be the figure that puts me in turmoil.

I have said before and I will keep repeating it as it applies ... I appreciate all of the responses. I am absorbing it all.
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  #28  
Old November 24th 2005, 07:27
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This topic reminds me about Ducati's....Seems like everybody on the planet that doesn't own them states "Valve adjustements every 3K miles....they're just too much/high maintenance..." Yet, the people that really own them find it's not as hyped up as people make it to be.....

I know Jake, you stated quality, or lack thereof of the Chinese cranks....but if it's not broke......

This isn't to say they aren't crap, but if multiple people are using them, and are having no issues, who really cares?

Based off of the 4 people I know PERSONALLY(seems like everybody these days goes off internet "I knows") that have stroker T1's, all of them have nothing BUT a reliable motor. When I say reliable, I say no major issues. They don't even do the much heated valve adjustments. Most have electronic ignition, but even still have no electrical issues. Cars start right up, and is just like any modern day engine and recieve no attention that any other engine wouldn't recieve, except it's air cooled.

Of them 4, 2 of them had a Serrano engine. One had misc built pieced motor, lots of Autocraft parts, assembled by a local shop, and the other guy, I dunno where he got his motor/tranny from, but it was somebody out in cali, where he now moved back to.

As far as the Porsche comment...I don't really think that's an arguement, more as it is a statement. As most people can and would drive a 911 if truly given the option, but it's not that....it's something totally different that drives you to do what we're doing...kinda like that ricer who drives a $50K Civic. It's faster than a Vette, and hell, he dropped all $50K at one time, yet, he'd still rather drive his Civic.

I think this topic is making some great points. Like stated in other threads, having the AC motor in the bug is what more or less seperated the Beetle from everyother little ecobox car with a huge motor. Although, it's a blanket statement, most of it holds valid except the out of box great chassis that the bug has. Most Ecobox cars don't have the handling STOCK that bugs do...

But what it boils down to, is how dedicated to wanna be to it. Even if you don't wanna be "the top dawg", everybody wants the most for your money. Are you really willing to drop that many thousand dollars on an aircooled motor, especially a TIV if the most uneconomical choice (pricewise) of the bunch, just to say you're staying true to the ACVW GL? I mean like stated, that's alot of dough to be dropping just to stay aircooled.

To put it into perspective. The COVETED Type R motor with low miles INCLUDING tranny, ECU and wiring harness is ballpark $5K. That's 200HP straight out of the factory box with low miles and Honda "beat the **** outta me and I can still take more" reliability. All OEM from the factory, so you have a completely stock 200HP motor. Granted, if you drop that into a Civic, it won't be as fast as a Bug with a $5K/200HP worth of motor in it, but the point is, that guy with a Honda spent $5k for a complete package. I mean hell, even the V8 guys are spending only $5-9K on a V8 crate motor and getting 500-800HP... They might be getting "cheap parts", but thier motor is just as reliable and is running the same HP numbers/times at the track as the guy with the $20K GM Factory performance engine who wanted to stay true to his roots/pay for the R&D.....

Last edited by oicdn; November 24th 2005 at 07:31.
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  #29  
Old November 24th 2005, 13:47
kleinporsche kleinporsche is offline
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Sorry again and again Oasis and all of you guys for creating quite a stir. I really admire your work: you are building dream cars. I'm thinking Jak Riz, El Rookie, Superman, Oicdn, 73notch, etc etc.

I'm gratefull because this thread made me think again and I have changed my mind on the whole thing. For me German Look is about taking the most of a beetle and giving it modern technologies while keeping a vintage Ferdinand Prorsche spirit. You've got to be careful not to change it more or less into a kit-car... chevy engie, rx-7 brakes, 944 rear suspension, 993 5-speed trans, etc etc. A Beetle must stay a Beetle. Herbie as a Nascar racer is stupid.

I think I'm gonna go medium T1 probably a 1914cc, swing axle, 4 speed with a good chassis preparation for a vintage track racer such as what Porsche did with the 356 and 550 back then. Stay true to Aircool (even though I love the sound and performance a suby can offer for the price) and push the beetle to it's reasonable limits: just to have fun driving it (It doesn't mean that I don't want to be able to outhandle or beat any little ricer with they caps backwards: I DO. And I will need your support and help to achive that). Final words: I don't believe these car were meant for 200hp. and Civics are not meant to be drag racers.

With all my respect -Kleinporsche (it mean small porsche in german Wally)

Last edited by kleinporsche; November 24th 2005 at 14:16.
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  #30  
Old November 24th 2005, 14:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kleinporsche
Final words: I don't believe these car were meant for 200hp.

-Kleinporsche (it mean small porsche in german Wally)
No, not originally, but limitations are only in your head I strongly believe.
The original beetle was only meant for 24,5 hp and not 50hp, but volkswagen themselves evolved the bug into a better bug each model year.
See what we do as catching up of VW's halted R&D over the years...
Starting to see what I mean? Now, thats the german style/spirit...

Oh, and I really know the german language quite well actually ( as I double as a mod on a german forum as well )
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