Ecotec v.s. Subaru v.s. everything else

lazylongboarder · #1 July 10th 2005, 04:39

I'm in the process of building THE bug...his name is Gary (and no i'm not gay). I sandblasted the pan, welded new floor pans, installed an adjustable puma beam, lowered ball joints, dropped spindles, and i'm waiting for my brakes to come back from VwCustoms...14" rotors with red 6 piston mono-block calipers at all four corners (who needs an e-brake?) off of the front of the 2005 Porsche Cayenne Turbo. I'm going to be installing a 6 speed g-50 off of a 993.
Alright, porsche motors are a little rich for my blood and so i'm looking at some water cooled options.
I'm thinking the options are between the subaru and the ecotec motors. I'm looking for the most possible hp for the buck and i'm looking to spend $4000 to $5000 on the motor, computer, radiator, everything. I'm looking for a turbo motor to sqeeze the extra ponies out. I heard the ecotec motor can get a good 500 hp reliably but with internals. But who builds them?
According to outback motors, to get 350 hp and up out of a subaru motor you need a closed deck block, pistons, rods, you name it, including race gas and they only build subaru motors.
All options are welcome here.

vujade · #2 July 10th 2005, 08:39

Quote:

Project is taking all my money and it's all Germanlook.com's fault!

Ain't that the truth...ROFL

danielzink · #3 July 10th 2005, 09:20

Not to take anything away from this forum - but there's a forum over on the Shoptalk dedicated to exactly this type of thing.

The link is :

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewfo...ab8b77d547b0b3

Check it out !

Dan

Steve C · #4 July 10th 2005, 11:40

Hi

I like the idea of a healthy Subaru flat 4 going into bug, but Im biased.

Steve

rip · #5 July 10th 2005, 20:01

http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions

http://www.rx7club.com/forum

http://www.mazdatrix.com/

I'd go with a 13b rotary conversion, and a small turbo. This will be fast and though rotarys are not thought of as reliable; it will last 100,000 miles under boost, and give you a stock 9g rev limit. The motor has about 150hp stock, but with a turbo combination your looking at the 400-450hp range. They have only three moving parts, you don’t have to worry about lifters going bad, or the right cam. Capatablity of parts (as they're mostly stock) isn’t that bad of a problem.

But that’s not to say that a rotary is a perfect motor, you now have to worry about apex seals, hard starts (after hot). These engine also drink oil, about a quart after every 5000 miles. You sort of leave one set of problems for another, question is which do you feel more confortable dealing with. And which are easier to fix, replacment water pumps, or rebuilt turbos are easier than new cams and cranks.

New seal kits run about 850-1000usd
Rotors are about 600usd
Rotor housings are about 500usd

But depending if you buy a new motor or find a junker and rebuild it your self the end cost will differ as does the performance, lets face it some one who does this daily will be better than those who do it for the first time. A stock rebuilt 13B runs about 3000usd with many new parts. But once you’ve got that it doesn’t take much to go high performance.

Frankly I’d find forums of the engines you hope to use then see what their problems are and then see what you’re willing to deal with.

As far as the other motors you mentioned I think because they are relatively new compared to the 13B they will cost more, and less is known about them. Although I believe the Ecotec is supposed to have a strong aftermarket building, good or not I don’t know.

oicdn · #6 July 12th 2005, 11:43

I wasn't exactly on the design team for the Ecotec motor, but I JUST LEFT the J-Body scene when it finally got put into production. I was scheduled to be one of the test platforms for that motor by Mantapart (who was my main sponsor, and did GMs suspension for thier SEMA cars) I was there while it was getting tested, and while it was getting it "revamped" from Opel.

The Ecotec is a VERY strong motor STOCK. When they were testing that motor out with a turbo, they stock pistons and rods are insane. The way they tested it was by upping the boost until something broke, then replaced what broke and kept upping the Boost. Crazy, but absolute fact when designing Nelson Hoyos' Drag Cavalier before the girl took over and started driving his rig. I think it got to 13psi or 18psi on a stock bottom end. Stock pins, rods, pistons, rings, crank, bearings. That's giving DSM bottom ends a run for thier money.....

Extremely strong Bottom end. I've been out of that scene for a bit, but I remember GM raving about that bottom end.

lazylongboarder · #7 July 13th 2005, 02:44

I don't think i'll have a problem putting to much boost into a motor that i can get for 300 dollars. The performance book says the stock internals are good until 400 hp,Axl says 383, I say 1000 for fun so lets play for 1320 ft or so. No but really, rods are between $350-$600, pistons are between about the same and with those and springs, a hotter cam, i mean cams, and a T3/T4 turbo, I'm hoping for a reliable 550 hp. All I need to get now is the turbo plumbing figured out and I think i'm sold on a motor that i can build up over time. My girlfriend wants a ring...I want my bug to be done...I think you all know who is going to win (after dropping $3000 on brakes i think you know) I'm single and i like it that way! DOWN WITH JOINT BANK ACCOUNTS! VW's are really cheap to rebuild...

Krautwagen · #8 July 13th 2005, 15:02

My first post.

I just installed a 1992 EJ22 Subaru engine in my 1989 Vanagon. It is amazing what a few more ponies does to a Vanagon. I am now very interested in replacing my 1600DP in my 1973 Bug with a similar engine. Even a stock EJ22 would be a welcome increase in HP in my Bug.

You can find good wrecked WRX cars and use the EJ20 turbo. With some tuning you can get high HP out of that mill. You could try to find an STI engine, those are factory built monsters. Check out www.vwrx.com where this guy is putting an STI engine in his Syncro Vanagon Westy.

Subaru is a flat 4 design that is decades ahead of the VW design. My Vanagon is smooth and fast, with great torque, and reliability.

Just my 2 cents on the topic. Subaru engines just make sense to me.

Andy

Panelfantastic · #9 July 14th 2005, 22:35

... who would want to use anything but Eco ????

lazylongboarder · #10 July 17th 2005, 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panelfantastic

... who would want to use anything but Eco ????

I agree, I've been talking to the guys at bates and they said a healthy 500 ponies is not a tough thing to do since you don't have to do anything to the bottom end! $255 adapter plate, $350 motor, $1500 everything else= best hp for your money! I just drove next to my friends cav. with 350 hp on the stock internals tonight and he burned out at 40 mph... it's amazing to me that fwd cars are so popular but so slow.

When you accelerate hard, where does all the weight go...?

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