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Old November 2nd 2005, 16:47
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oasis oasis is offline
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type 4 starter engine

Is it smart to consider buying a Type 4 engine ready-to-go (or close) for a short-term solution and as a basis for a long-term solution in my 1302, or should I just hold off and get the Type 4 built the way I want it when I am ready for it?

I am interested in a mild, easy-to-maintain engine in the 120-150 HP and Ft-Lbs range for spirited daily driving. I am guessing a 2056 or a 2270 is the most likely final solution. The car would see residential here-and-there driving as well as interstate driving.

If the answer to the question is yes, what do I consider when looking for that engine?

Would one of these be a decent basis? (If unknown, what would I ask to find out?)

Rebuilt 2.0

Turnkey 1.8

Another 1.8

I offered a typical array of ads one might find, although there aren't usually too many ads for complete Type 4 engines.

Am I better off looking for an engine that was already in a 356/914/912/411/412 than in a Type 2 (I know to avoid Vanagon engines)?
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Old November 3rd 2005, 15:29
Supa Ninja Supa Ninja is offline
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This where you have to look at what you want and decide if you can wait for it. The expensive part of going type IV in a type I powered car is the intial expense of the conversion. You got to get cooling whether its a DTM, upright conversion, or Porsche style. Exhaust is not cheap, a BAS header with shipping over $400 plus you got the muffler to figure out. Carbs with type 4 manifolds, brand new Weber IDF's are a pretty penny nowadays. External oil coolers, modifing decklids for clearance. Mating the engine to the tranny can be pricey too, 210-215mm bus flywheel, lightned, resurfaced, a clutch. God help you if your going to use a 901 box cause then you'll need a 914 flywheel and a 911/914 clutch and even a stock setup is a bit of money.
I've had my 914 for almost 3 years, i've put 55,000 miles on it, and for me that is a miracle cause I break type 1 motors, built/stock, fresh/tired I break them. Now is it worth all that initial expense to put that kind of engine into a bug, and if it's a stock 2.0L it will only make if your lucky 100hp. Built type IV's are another huge expense on top of all of that.
There is alternative power plants too and I'm glad there are several guys on here who have already converted to scooby power. I read all their posts with a open mind. I think that is a solution for most bang for your buck but like everthing you do to these cars there will be negatives for the pluses. The most obvious is having to install a radiator.
Research, research, research!!!!
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Old November 4th 2005, 09:22
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Wow, my head is spinning. This is by far a more detailed answer than I was expecting ... or looking for. Perhaps, the entire picture of what I want is necessary. The funny thing is I'm not really looking for the biggest bang or the biggest bang for my buck. When I say 120-150 HP and FT-LBS, it is a pure guess. Whatever, it seems that hasn't simplified anything.

Brevity has never been a strong suit with me. I'll do my best but I apologize in advance for this post's length as I go through Supa Ninja's thorough response point by point.

It is important I point out up front I know at least 90% of GL.com members know more about mechanics than yours truly. I've been a member of this forum 20 months longer than I've been an air-cooled owner. There are many articles and sites I have read several times because of my technical deficiency. And they will be re-read some more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supa Ninja
This where you have to look at what you want and decide if you can wait for it.
Oh, I know I have to wait. Buying the car took longer than expected. Changing the suspension, brakes, wheels and tires took longer than expected. Updating the seating took longer than expected. Some of the ancillary items still haven't been taken care of whereas some have.

What do I want? This is a very fluid answer but at this typing I would say I am 75% sure I want a Type IV (2270cc: 50%, 2056cc: 20%, something else: 5%). These percentages have dropped given how expensive Type IV engines are. I know about their durability and torque and all the rest of it, and all I can say is that is why I am still at 75% on the sure scale.

The fact Type IV engines are approximately three times more expensive than Type I engines means I could go through three of the latter for the same outlay over the same time frame. Also, since I got 300,000 miles out of my '86 Jetta without needing a rebuild until I sold it 16 years later, I don't think I will be as harsh on whatever I end up getting.

I'd say I'm 20% sure on the Type I engine and 5% sure on something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supa Ninja
The expensive part of going type IV in a type I powered car is the intial expense of the conversion. You got to get cooling whether its a DTM, upright conversion, or Porsche style. Exhaust is not cheap, a BAS header with shipping over $400 plus you got the muffler to figure out. Carbs with type 4 manifolds, brand new Weber IDF's are a pretty penny nowadays. External oil coolers, modifing decklids for clearance. Mating the engine to the tranny can be pricey too, 210-215mm bus flywheel, lightned, resurfaced, a clutch. God help you if your going to use a 901 box cause then you'll need a 914 flywheel and a 911/914 clutch and even a stock setup is a bit of money.
First off, I thought an upright conversion was a separate issue to and necessary for the cooling method in a 1302. See? That's Dr. Technoklutz (me) in action. The cooling method will be determined by who ultimately is building the engine. (If I do anything myself as a first engine, it will be a mild 1776cc Type I or just a straight rebuild of what I already have.)

Many of the other items listed are noted and accounted for, and like the cooling system will be taken care of by the engine builder. The real exception here is the exhaust. I have my preferences despite not having researched exact prices. None of them are in the states, so I continue to lurk hoping a proper (to me) alternative becomes available.

I don't know what basis RAT's "B" transmissions is but that is a near certainty for me if I stick with my Type IV plans. I haven't ruled out an LSD or a five-speed but those are details to be decided later. Porsche trannies require too much one-off fabrication for me to even consider.

The mention of modified decklids means major alarms are now going off in my head. I thought I read this would not be necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supa Ninja
There is alternative power plants too and I'm glad there are several guys on here who have already converted to scooby power. I read all their posts with a open mind. I think that is a solution for most bang for your buck but like everthing you do to these cars there will be negatives for the pluses. The most obvious is having to install a radiator.
Yup, I've been reading. It would be more likely I would go this route on my next Beetle than this one. I am also partial to Mazda's rotary having owned one and knowing the reputation it has for using oil is bogus. Having said that, I do recognize many of these engines are abused and there is a shortage of mechanics who know diddly about them.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I started this thread with a curiosity based on whether I should (1) buy, install and drive the basis for my eventual conversion, (2) buy, install and drive a stock Type IV now, and deal with my conversion separately later, or (3) drive and maintain my current stock Type I until I'm ready for the plunge.

The first two would have required some coaching on buying such an engine. Hence, the inclusion of some sample ads. The latter of the three will probably also include a rebuild. My stocker has never been rebuilt and will probably need it before anything else is ready.

Hopefully, the completeness of this post will foster suggestions and even debates rather than scatter everyone ducking for cover.
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  #4  
Old November 4th 2005, 13:29
Supa Ninja Supa Ninja is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oasis

The mention of modified decklids means major alarms are now going off in my head. I thought I read this would not be necessary.
If a Fat Porsche shroud is used, yes. Most likely you'll end up with a RAT Type IV and a DTM will be the means of cooling(no mods to the deck lid needed).
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Old November 5th 2005, 18:34
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73notch 73notch is offline
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i was in your situation when i went through my type 4 phase. I wanted a 2270, blah blah. but things can get a bit overwhelming, i just name a few problem areas....
-lifters!
-heads are freggin expensive, with a 2270, the heads will be the weakpoint, so u have to determine how far u should go with headwork$$$$$$$
-exhaust, now that u are at a 2270, and spent $$$$$$$ on those heads^^ u gotta throw down some bills for a decent exhaust, u dont wanna restrict those expensive heads with a run of the mill stock bus exhaust.

If you go the type 4 route, and if i were to go the type 4 route, i would get a stock 2 liter engine, run it til it dies, and put in another used one. The most i would change would be
-carburation
-cams
-home port/polish
-build ur own shroud, using the next gen thing

then when you can, swap the 2.0 heads for 1.8 carburated heads. they have the same outside diameter as the 2.0 jugs.

and if you want to make it even easier, sell the bug and buy a type 3, then you wont even have to make a shroud.

btw, i ended up going the subaru route.....
-Ryan
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Old November 7th 2005, 04:46
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When I was car shopping, I considered a Type 3. There were so few in good enough shape available or worth bringing to the east coast, it wasn't even funny. There was one Notch in Vancouver I considered, two Fasties, and a Type 34 Ghia I agreed to buy except the scoundrel decided I needed to buy "$10,000 worth of parts for an additional $4,000" as well. That addendum killed the deal.

Four cars in more than a year of searching was fairly daunting.

Now having said that, I am shocked by your answer. I have been reading the Subaru threads and I have seen your site. So with all of that going on, I'm surprised you are suggesting an engine which may make 85-100 HP.

For all I know, 85-100 HP may indeed be enough. My wife's Golf TDI is only listed at 90 HP if memory serves me correctly. I think the torque is in the 150 FT-LB range, however. Her Golf is clearly heavier than my little 1302. I am hoping I get to be a passenger in a bunch of cars at Dyno Day.

I hate being clueless.

I can handle waiting. At some point I can handle the necessary expense -- depending what it is, and obviously, up to a point.

Are you saying the expense makes the 2270 undesirable? Are you saying there are going to be longevity issues after making such a financial commitment?
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Old November 8th 2005, 16:19
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Massive Type IV Massive Type IV is offline
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The only thing that separates the VW from any car in the world is the aircooled engine.. Removing the aircooled engine creates a car that may as well be a Ford Pinto or Chevy Chevette- Both were economy cars of the same era!

BTW- To dispel a myth:
The TIV engine is NOT 4 times more expensive than a TI of equal displacement. when you compare apples to apples it will take the same amount of money to create a TI even close to the strength of a TIV in durability respects.

When one decides to drive their car instead of working on it- they graduate to the TIV.
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Old November 9th 2005, 15:47
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Wally Wally is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massive Type IV
The only thing that separates the VW from any car in the world is the aircooled engine.. Removing the aircooled engine creates a car that may as well be a Ford Pinto or Chevy Chevette- Both were economy cars of the same era!

BTW- To dispel a myth:
The TIV engine is NOT 4 times more expensive than a TI of equal displacement. when you compare apples to apples it will take the same amount of money to create a TI even close to the strength of a TIV in durability respects.

When one decides to drive their car instead of working on it- they graduate to the TIV.
Yeah, I kind of agree... totally
Tho I also understand the reasons people do the suby conversion for, so if its not totally financial you base your decision on, its all about your personal experience you (want to) get from driving your car...

Good luck,
Walter
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Old November 9th 2005, 17:17
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agreed. i am all for the suby and other mods. i made a decision with my car that it was going to be about the spirit of the aircooleds though and stuck with getting as much out of aircooled and N/A as i could. i can get a turbo anywhere.

that said, a suby is going in my vanagon/transporter one day. it already has water.
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Old November 10th 2005, 14:58
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73notch 73notch is offline
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why work with a powerplant when you have to make so many sacrifices.
The whole thing: Cheap, reliable, fast, pick 2 thing is pretty accurate.
I thought it was BS, i wanted all 3!!!!!!
Im all for aircooled motors, I love the simplicity, but its pretty apparant that hipo vw motors are reaching their limits when they are built, where as a new watercooled motor can make really good power reliably STOCK and then be upgraded. Why limit yourself?? If it was a new aircooled motor it would be even better, but they dont make them anymore. Its just modern technology. Honda motors make 100hp/liter stock in economy cars! It would cost a crap load to make a vw motor do that, would it be as bulletproof as a stock motor? hell no.
I mean, one of the main reasons the type 4 motor is appealing is because it was bigger stock, and because it made more power stock. Same thing applies. If vw still made flat 4s, lets call it a "type 6" im sure a ton of people would have them in their cars. A motor swap is a motor swap

-Ryan
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  #11  
Old November 10th 2005, 15:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 73notch
Why limit yourself??
Why take the easy way out?

I can also not paint and not restore my car and call it a RAT-look (no pun intended). I would belong to an exclusive weird looking bunch and wouldn't have to do anything !

Like I said, nobody said that your choise is not sensible: Au contraire: It is! but some 'experience' their car in a different way. I can't describe it any other way...
Its a personal thing. I do not need to convince you and I guess you do need to justify your choise to go suby with me/us

I still like your car and conversion VERY much, so don't be mistaken by the above!

Best regards,
Walter
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