What motor?

[Primer73Dub]

Ok heres the deal...I am new to GL. I have been workin on Vws since I was 13, I'm 17 now...I have had 8 in the past 4 years. My big project is all coming together. Now its time for a motor, i wanna be quick but reliable. I have been lookin at many Porsche motor and motor/trans combos and I'd like to know what all is possible without too much work and whats everyones suggestion. Also another big plan is the car is probably gonna be on air bags within the next year so that might make so spaceing issues .I wanna be different but I am also on a budget.If anyone has a suggestion and a place to get the motor you are talking about lemme know, Thanks!

[vujade]

if you want rebility and speed go with a type 4 motor.
they came standard in vw bus, 411's, 412's & Porsche 914's.

You can easily convert one of these to fit in a bug.
my suggestion would to find one that is running, then do the conversion to make it fit, once you are used to the new power, then when you can afford to rebuild the motor larger.

[Primer73Dub]

I found someone with 2 type 4 motors and a bus full of parts at a junkyard that I build webpages and stuff for, he said my pick of motor for $100, Then sold them. At the time I didn't know how hard the conversion would be or any details on what to do. I am still kind of in the dark about the whole thing and really not sure what all is involved. Also I am worried about the stuff I have on my type 1 motor in the car. I paid $100 for 3 inch duals on it within the last 4 months. So can somone tell me what all is involved in the conversion and now I still need to find a place to get a motor. Thanks...

[kdanie]

If you are thinking of a Porsche 6 cyl engine I would recomend rethinking that option, it has been done but it is difficult to do correctly because the engine is so long. If it's in the budget, I would recomend a 901 5 speed (the flywheel mod. noted below is not necessary for this trans).
Look for a type 4 from a 411/412 or 914, the bus engines are ok also if they have been maintained well.
To convert a type 4 for use in a bug is easy, you need a 210mm or 215mm flywheel/clutch, an upright cooling system and exhaust. The transmission pilot bearing must be put into the flywheel not the crankshaft so a little reaming by a machine shop is necessary but not expensive.
There are several choices for cooling systems, Porsche 911 style is the coolest but the most expensive (case machining is necessary on all but the Fat shroud). There are a couple of type 1 style shrouds available in the states and europe, stay away from the shroud with the fan in the middle, it must be offset like a stock type 1.
Exhaust is more difficult, build your own header like I did, use shortened heater boxes or heater box replacement tubes or buy a header from europe or Fat performace.
If you want it to be quick and still be not too expensive, here's my recomendation.....Any type 4 case, 2.0L crank and rods, 96mm cylinders (2056cc), 1.8L heads (they come with 41mm intake and 34mm exhaust valves), DIY port job, 9-1 compression, a .040" deck, a cam with about 285 deg duration and .430" lift, a pair of 40mm Dellorto carbs(44mm Webers), an 1 1/2" header with long primaries and collector (custom is best) and you have a reliable 120 HP without much effort, a little more if you assemble it carefully. Be sure to thread all oil passage plugs for pipe plugs so they can't blow out.
Want more power? There goes the budget! 78mm stroke 102/103 cylinders, more agressive cam, light valve train, bigger valves, professional porting, 45mm Dellortos, bigger/better header. 180Hp or more from a 2.6L is easily possible but the HP costs much more $$.
Some people say building a type 4 engine is more difficult than a type 1 engine, I don't see it personally. Any engine done correctly takes some effort, if you just slap some parts together it will run but not at it's full potienial. I have a budget (that's relitive!) 2.0L type 4 based on a 1.7L case. I can't think of a single piece on this engine that has not been reworked or modified for optimal performance.
I hope this helps
ken

[Primer73Dub]

I swear I love this site, You get REAL ANSWERS!!!! Ok next question, Can I get some info on the 901 5 Speed? Ok where would I find one and what price range do they run? Also how hard is the conversion? Also we run into another problem, I just bought a new empi shifter. I am sure I could sell that pretty quick though.So what all is involved in doing a 901 5 speed conversion and how long would it take? Also would that bolt right up to the Typ 4 motor w/ out mods? And one more question how quick is a Super Beetle w/ 120 hp?

[kdanie]

901's come in '66 to '69 911 and 912 Porsche's. They can sell for $200-$800 depending on condition. Look in the Tech article section and links for info on installing one. Type 4s in 914s used a variation of the 901 so the clutch/flywheel will bolt right up and work fine in a regular 901. A 4 speed shifter will work OK. How long will it take? That's up to you, could be a day or a week, depending on your skills in fabrication of the mounts and linkage.
Again, read the tech articles and old posts. Also visit the ShopTalkForums (STF) at www.shoptalkforums.com then go to the eurolook forum. Most of us here also visit there, those forums have been around for a couple of years. Lots of good info on this subject in the old posts. I prefer these new GL forums but still go to STF to see if anythin new comes up (rarely these days).
ken

[adomakin]

it seems to me that you are going to spend an awfull lot of money and time building and installing an engine for your bug that will ultimately be quite unreliable and hard to set up, just to get 120-180bhp. why dont you do it the right way. get as much info together as you can and find yourself a good fabricator to help you install a flat 6 porsche engine and 901/915 box. for a start you got an UNMODIFIED 6 cylinder engine with fantastic reliablity and bags more torque. secondly the lowest power output of all the porsche flat sixes is 130bhp so youve reached level one already. thirdly, if you want to go mad, buy a post september 1980 3 litre sc engine and have a full 204 of UNMODIFIED ULTRA-RELIABLE bhp which will simply bolt up to whatever box you have used with no more than some electrical and fueling mods from the origonal install and my fourth and final point is that you will be able to experience of one of the best sounds in the world every time you push the go pedal, not some 'orrid lumpy cammed up to the eyeballs race engine that dont start in the morning and throws a rod every 400 miles.

you know it makes sense.

by the way ive got a 1975 170bhp 2.7s porsche engine for sale if you are interested...............................

[Farmer]

There is one severe problem with installing a Porsche six in a beetle. That is the weight transfer !
It has been tried many times.
A very skilled friend of mine, set his mind to overcome this problem, and went a loong way to do it. among that was a 2" movement of the tranny, forward, to reduce the overhang, + the massive cutting and welding in the engine compartement. after about 1 year of thinking and building the engine came (2,7 L w. "RS" cams, 210 HP). Only to find out that if the car should drive just reasonably, he had to add at least 40 pounds in the front. And even then it was a bitch. After 2 - 3 years of trying, the "six" came out, and in came the old 2,6 T4 and the car handled so much better again.
So from a secondary point of wiev, don´t bother! Go for a T4 instead if you want big reliable power.

[vujade]

again I wouldnt recommend a flat 6 Porsche motor.
Yes it has more power reliably then a T4 motor, but like it
has been said before there is just to much work involved to
make it work. Plus you would have a severe weight problem in
then rear.

If you are on a tight budget, you should find a running 2.0
914 T4 engine (Not a BUS 2.0 T4) for about $700-$1000.
This motor will have about 95HP stock. With the right exhaust,
carbs, & ignition you should have around 110HP. Then when
you can afford to, you can have a 160HP T4 motor build from
your 2.0 that will be incredibly reliable if you have it built right.

The T4 conversion doesnt take much. You will need either to
buy a FAT fan shroud (if you want to use a 911 Fan & Alt), you
will need a good merged exhaust (BAS is the best for the least
money) and you will need to get a 210 or 215mm T4 Flywheel
to use with your motor. The 914 2.0 Flywheel is 225mm and will
not work with a T1 trans. It will work with the 901 trans if you
go that route.

You are probably better off sticking with your trans in the begining
because it will be able to handle 100Hp no problem. You will
not need the 901 trans yet. Not until you rebuild your motor to
160HP and even then you could save a bunch of money by
rebuilding your stock trans with Heavy duty parts & the right gear
rations.

[Ron Roberts]

All I know is back when I lived in Chesterfeild county goochland had off school for snow and we didn't!

Remember if you use a basically stock T4 to get you started, to replace the valve seats. This must be done differently than stock to remedy a problem they had with dropping seats. It is a minor out-patient surgery.
Ron

[lightning bug]

Probably not the best choice. Aside from all of the work involved (I've never done this conversion, but can only imagine) weight is definitely a factor. A T4 weighs approx. 300 lbs. Depending on which 6 cyl. you choose, you will add up to 200+/- pounds to the rear. For example:

2.4L........400lbs
2.7L........440lbs
3.0L........460lbs
3.2L........480lbs

These are DRY weights and without transmissions, (you will need a Porsche trans which are heavier).

A'74 911 weighs 2500 lbs., 2.7L with advertised 180 HP in the 911S.
Your bug doesn't weigh more than 2000 lbs. You can easily get 150 HP out of a T4 or T1 for that matter. So for 30 more HP and 140+ lbs. more rear weight, plus the fact of all of that work. You be the judge.

[Wally]

I agree Julian,
Also Adomakin, the fact that you offer your 911 engine for sale coupled with your advise to use one, makes the advise questionable to begin with. I also explored the 6-cyl way very extensively and even had bought a 2,7 6-cyl 911 engine to start with. Since the 2,7 ltr is the last of the magnisium cases, its the best one to use. The engines itself however are also the ones most needy of a full rebuild, which will cost even a bit more (but not that much) than a really good type 4 2,7 ltr engine. To boot, the type 4 delivers more power! and fits in your engine bay without needing to modify the outside.
Another "small" negative is that you would need a new type approval here to be able to have a 6-cyl in a originally 4 cyl car.
Then again, the 911 design is ecellent from an engineering point of view! Luckily we can use a few parts from it! (I'am still working - and making progress - on adapting the 100 mm Nikasils from the 964 for a type 4 application).
Walter