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  #1  
Old April 27th 2005, 19:11
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Holy Crap!!!

New Kafer Cup Bar from Bugpack... its about time one of the bigger
companies stepped up made these at a reduced rate.

Click Here
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  #2  
Old April 27th 2005, 21:56
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I saw that too. Looks good from the picture. :agree:

I doubt it would be strong enough to straighten frame horns, but I've never seen it in person.
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  #3  
Old April 27th 2005, 23:18
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I'm probably not gonna make any friends with what I have to say, but here goes: ("the truth will set you free")

Heim rod ends are designed to a link that needs to articulate. In order for the ball in a rod end swivel within the socket, there must be clearance. Makes sense right? If there was no clearance, the ball wouldn't move. So, it makes NO sense to me that people use heim joints for a stiffening component. For a link that has to rotate, it's the perfect component. For a link that is intended to be stiff and not move, is is the worst component. There is clearance within the joint itself that will only increase with wear. So basically people out there are designing a stiffening component that isn't stiff, and will get less stiff with wear. Hmmm.

Take a look around, all the guys in the know use a solid clevis end for any kind of chassis stiffening link. So why do you see the prevalance of heim joints in 'braces'. Think about it, it's easy to design. You don't have to concern yourself with proper angles and link orientation cuz the heim will take care of that. It's a cop-out for poor design.

Alright, I've vented.

Lanner
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  #4  
Old April 27th 2005, 23:59
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My PTP brace doesn't move at all even with the bolts loose. It has the solid clevis ends on it...
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  #5  
Old April 28th 2005, 01:29
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not to mention it looks weaker if you ask me, the two drops that support the frame horns are connected a distance in from the mounts. if you tried to preload the frame horn you'd probably start to bend the crap out of the horizontal support beam. I agree poor design, but hopfully the price causes others to lower theirs.

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Old April 28th 2005, 09:57
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Lanner,

I agree. My Cup Brace (The proper one ) has nicely machined aluminum ends ... very similar to the Heigo stuff. As a test, I put a jack underneith one of the frame horns to lift the car ... guess what .... no measured flex with a dial indicator. I know I made the right choice.

An interesting side note is the rear suspension has been made stiffer with the addition of the brace. I had to adjust my whiteline swaybar and made it one notch looser.

Sandeep
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  #7  
Old April 28th 2005, 14:19
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so lanner when will you start making these
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  #8  
Old April 28th 2005, 22:10
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It's kinda in the works. Still marinating over the details in the noggin. The ends are the hardest part to make. It'll be all aluminum if/when it gets done. I'm trying to figure out how to make it bolt in without compromising the structural integrity.

Easy,
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  #9  
Old May 6th 2005, 13:08
mbartell mbartell is offline
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just wondering

I don't know much about chassis set ups on bugs, but I have ot ask- why are these always bolt in adjustable kits? could you do the same thing by just welding high strength tubes in, kind of roll-cage style? What are the adjusters for?
I guess I'm trying to justify the price when I think a fabrication shop could just weld something in.
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  #10  
Old May 6th 2005, 21:47
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bugpack freggin sucks. so far everything ive gotten from them is defective, crappily designed, or just plain falls apart. ive learned my lesson about sticking with factory parts if at all possible.

btw i have a couple friends inside bugpack, im not rooting for another company, just my opinion.

got a question regarding the heim joint debate. When i installed mine, i put a little preload into all the bars, which in turn should not allow any side to side movement, maybe back and forth, but then those bars are pushing on the framehorns, i cant see how they would move....
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  #11  
Old May 14th 2005, 21:46
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I was looking through aircooled.net's site and I noticed an addition to the description for their kafer bar. Looks mightly similar to my rant a couple of posts (#3, April 28/05) up. Change a few words here and there, but unless you're a bilnd man....


For your viewing pleasure:
"
It's also important to note that there are copies of this device that are showing up. Most of them use Heim rod ends. Think about this; Heim rod ends are designed to be used on an articulated link (a link that must move). For the Heim Joint to swivel within the socket, there must be clearance ( If there was no clearance, the ball wouldn't move). So from an engineering perspective, it makes ZERO SENSE to use heim joints for a stiffening component. For a link that has to rotate, it's great, but for a link that is intended to be stiff and not move, is is the worst connection you can use. The ACN KCB uses solid clevis ends, which is the most stout and solid connection you can use on your car, and they will not wear or loosen.
"

http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/vie...RC0006&cartid=

Hmmm, atleast give credit where it's due. I pride myself of developement. Everything I sell I have personally developed. I've never purchased something and "reverse engineered" a product. I've done it the old fashioned way; the triple-C method. Calipers, Calculator and CAD. It's the only way I'll put my name on something. I haven't yet had anyone copy my product (although I'm sure the future holds many surprises), but to copy my ideas?

JC, I'm calling you out. No hard feelings, but throw some props my way!

Lanner
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Last edited by flat; May 14th 2005 at 22:09.
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  #12  
Old May 14th 2005, 21:54
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mbartell,

You're right, you could just weld in some tubes. But then you have to design, fabricate and weld. Also it wouldn't be removable.

With the products on the market (and mine soon) the design and fabrication is done. You just weld it in and it's removable should the need arise. Plus it's a whole lot sexier than just welded in tube.

For a stiffening component, the adjustability is there just to insure one product fits all applications. There is no need to preload anything, be it strut brace or rear brace. With left and right hand threads on a fine thread pitch (1mm or 1.5mm) you can generate a significant tension just by cranking the bar down with hand effort. For an experiment I did that with my super strut bar and I could bend the strut tower 0.06" per side with moderate hand force cranking the threads. I got a little scared (it was my own car!) so I backed off. The point is that you can do alot of damage by preloading. Just snug it up and lock it up.

Lanner
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  #13  
Old May 14th 2005, 22:28
beetle1303 beetle1303 is offline
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hey guys,
how should a strut bar or rear bar be installed?
I mean, should the car be lifted up so the wheels wont touch the ground, thus no preload on suspension geometry, or its ok if the car rests on its wheels? Just curius

chris
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  #14  
Old May 27th 2005, 22:16
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beetle1303,

For my strut bars here's the install procedure:
The car should be on the ground, preferably a level surface. Have a 1/2 tank of gas and all the usual suspects under the hood (spare tire, tools, jack, ie. everything you usually carry in the car). Then when you do the final adjust/tightening sit or kneel in the front of the car. The cross bar should just be snug (ie tighten with only the index and first finger) and then tighten all the fasteners. Do not preload beyond the 'two-finger' method.

For the rear torque bars, it's be best if the car was under it's own weight (ie not jacked up or on a hoist). Once again, only a two finger preload and tighten everything up.

Lanner
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  #15  
Old May 27th 2005, 22:18
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Mr Connolly,

You're quick on the 'copy' but a little slow on the apology. Nothing to say?

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