944 brakes tech article by Superman - Q

[Wally]

Hi Super,
You asked me to post my question I send you by pm here for every-one to read, so I will:
In the 944 (83-85) brakes on the SB, you mention swapping control arms from a later (post 8-73) model to the ealier model SB's.
You don't however mention that the inner mounting positions on the SB sub-frame are at a different position. One is wider spaced than the other. I know the swap will work anyway (seen it), but how does this effect camber ? Will the camber change be adjustable within specs?

Also: when the inner mounting points are shifted, then the location of the sway-bar attachment points in the control arms is also moved, causing possible friction in operation.
I did notice already more friction in the free movement of my stock sway-bar because of my lowering which resulted in a wider position of the swaybar attachment points in the control arms: My control arms are horizontal when the car is stationairy.

Thanks,
Walter

Thank you for asking here.

Okay first it is the post 5/73 Super that has the later suspension, this was one of those mid-year changes. However, I usually label the late as 74-79 and the early as 71-73 to cut down on confusion, although the 73 did have the late suspension for a few months.

I don't know where you have gotten this information that the mounts are in different positions because they are not. The mounts, although a slighty different design and look different, are the same dimensions. The mounting holes are located in the exact same place on the chassis. The later mount does have the extra holes on the bottom that are unused. The top holes are the same as the early mounts. I have never seen the bottom holes used and assume they were put there by VW for perhaps a later suspension design or more adjustment in the case of chassis damage.

What does affect the camber is the design of the 944 spindle that gives 2 degrees more positive camber. There is a new product by www.TopLineParts.com called Camber + that will give more camber adjustment.

The reply to your edit with the additional question about the sway bar:

Keep in mind that when you retrofit the complete, except for the strut bearing mounts, late model suspension into the early car you have the whole design as it originally fuctions and there should be no problems at all (when it is left stock).

It is the addition of the 944 spindles that affect camber and the lowering of the car that affects both caster and camber.

The problem you mention about the sway bar and control arms is due to lowering and has affected the caster. There is a special sway bar bushing by Topline Parts made for this lowering modification. It is a bushing that is offset to allow the caster to come back into factory specs.

[Wally]

Originally posted by Superman
The problem you mention about the sway bar and control arms is due to lowering and has affected the caster. There is a special sway bar bushing by Topline Parts made for this lowering modification. It is a bushing that is offset to allow the caster to come back into factory specs.

Cool!Didn't know they thought of that as well! Want a set!

For my sake: caster is effected by the underside of the strut to move forward (and back) and camber is effected by longer or shorter control arms (moving of the strut left or right)?!
A caster correction on the sway bar mount at the control arm would then incorporate a mounting of shims or a more 'deeper' mount into the bushing to effect caster either way.
Off-set mounting in the control arm (more to the center of the car?) would help the sway bar to have its mounting points closer together resulting in moving with less friction on a lowered car, but that wouldn't effect camber IMO....?
This is sooo difficult to explain in writing...

BTW I really thought the two types of inner mounting were different spacially and that the later mounts were/are wider apart. You're probably right tho since you looked into this more than I have...

Thanks,
Walter

The bushings, that are offset for the sway bar to fix caster, are the ones in front that attach to the frame head not the ones in the control arms.


This site should answer all your other questions of alignment:
http://www.geocities.com/automotive_...suspension.htm

[Wally]

Super,
Just visited the Topline website and understand now what the off set mounts do to bring caster to spec. Very nice, but it does not adress my concern for the swaybar mounting with lowered SB's. To put it in another way: the sway bar gets more of a 'V' shape when your car gets lowered instaed of the original 'U' shape when the car sits high on its wheels. This pulling apart of the sway bar ends creates binding of some sort to an extent which can't be good...I hope you understand what I mean.

I understand that the heavy front sway-bar for lowered SB's from Topline is allready a bit shorter to adres the caster problem, but is it also a bit wider to adres the problem above?

Thanks again,
Walter

I do understand what you mean but I don't know the exact design details and specs of the Topline sway bar and caster fix bushings but needless to say it was researched, developed, and produced all to fix the exact problem you (we) have experienced in relation to lowered Supers.

If you email Jon @ Topline, info@toplineparts.com, I'm sure he will answer your question.

[Jeza]

Originally posted by Superman

The top holes are the same as the early mounts. I have never seen the bottom holes used and assume they were put there by VW for perhaps a later suspension design or more adjustment in the case of chassis damage.

Superman

I've noticed your mention of the mounting points in a couple of threads. By "top" you mean on top of the chassis.

My 71 1302 only has mounts under the chassis, none on the top at all.

I wonder if this is particular to models down under??

Any comments, also from others.

Cheers
Jeremy

No they both, [early] 71-4/73 and [late] 5/73-79, have the mounts under the [frame head] chassis.

What I mean is that on the early frame head there is only one set of holes to bolt the control arm to but the late frame head has two sets of holes (one on top of another).

The late bottom holes are never used and the late top holes are in the exact location of the early single holes. These are the holes that the control arm mounts are bolted into, see the picture attached of the late frame head and you'll notice I pointed to the set of two holes on the mount and the early frame head only has one hole here.

Also on a more detailed note of fitting the late suspension to the early car. I stated, "the whole late front suspension goes into the early car except the strut bearing mounts". Although it's not clearly pointed out this includes the sway bar from the late car.

Note that the tie rods, steering box, and center rod are the same from 71-74 so these parts do not need to be changed.

Summary, if you have to do the conversion to late suspension on your early car...

strut bearings 71-73
spring perch 71-73
strut housings 74-79
control arms 74-79
sway bar 74-79

Those that already have a 74-79 car just need to put the Porsche 944 parts on, none of this above is needed because your car already has these items.

[Jeza]

Thanks for the Pic Superman, thats cleared all my confusion up


Cheers
Jeremy