FAT performance T4 shroud

[Wally]

Originally posted by Massive Type IV
Do they?

Well, to be perfectly honest Jake, I don't think they have.
Thanks for the explaination.

Just to be clear on the issue for my (engines) sake: Do you use the same T1 tin on an upright cooling as you use with a porsche axial fan set-up?

Zen, maybe you can make a (sneek) picture of the tin mod, if that's ok with Jake of course, since it is his development.

Thanks,
Walter

[zen]

unrelated, here are some pics that i found on the net of another FAT install on a bug. sandeep, i will email these to you as well.
first of two.

[zen]

two of two

[Oliver Knuf]

Just a few questions, Jake. Do you used heat indicator tape or a few more temperature senders on one cylinder/cylinder bank or both banks to come to such a result? Did you tested that on a Type 1 with the Type 3 tin, too?







:silly: Sometimes I think I'm mad! :silly:

[Sandeep]

Thanks for the pics Zen.

Sandeep

[Massive Type IV]

I have 2 sets of CHT gauges. One of them is from www.westach.com and features 4 gauges in one housing with thermocouples on each spark plug. I also have another quad gauge that has probes that fit in the lower side of each cylinder.

When I did the testing I was working with the late Joe Locicero. He sent me a 24 probe thermocouple and harnass set that had 6 position switches for taking reading from 24 locations at once in real time with 4 gauges. This is the harnass he used to effectively design the DTM shroud.

So yes, the information was gathered with accurate gauges, just the two CHT gauges aI have in Quad form cost me over 1,000 bucks. I take what I test seriously, thats why I post so firmly, as I know the truth.

I did the TI test with TIII tin a long time ago, when I first got the dyno. I did not log very much data about it, it was a TI and I was just playing around..

[Oliver Knuf]

I've got a few more questions, Jake. Thanks for your fullfilling anther.

Why do you think, is it better to use the Type 1 reflectors instead of the original metal parts? Did you measure the temperature for this test at all four spark plugs or maybe under the cylinder in different positions, too? Did you test that on all kinds of engines with all kinds of fan systems? At least, what was the difference when using the Type 3 sheet on the Type 1 or was there any difference and did you measure the temperature again under all spark plugs?

Thanks,

Oliver ( <-- :silly: )

[Massive Type IV]

Oliver,
I explained the reasoning for the TI tins in an earlier post, it is due to the direction of the airflow.

Yes I did test this with full westach instrumentation, quad CHT and also one probe under each cylinders 3rd fin.

I also used the 24 probe harnass and installed 6 senders in different locations for each test, with 4 gauges I could watch each cylinder in real time... The differences were not small, and when the fan belt was removed from each one the engine magically produced 4more HP than with the TIV tins under the cylinders.

If VW would have wanted to restrict the airflow and keep things cooler don't you think they would have used TIII tins under the cylinders on TI powered busses? They did not because they understood the dynamics of the airflow.

For the cooling system to work efficiently the air must be able to escape almsot as fast as it goes over the cylinders, else it stagnates and does nothing...

I'm going to be testing my new version of DTM really soon, probably in 2 months . It is equipped with positioned stator vanesto direct airflow, at that time I wil also prove this cylinder tin debate again with my shroud, as I plan on offering the TI tins with the kit.

On a TI engine, the TIII tins did alot of harm, look on cal look com and do a search I posted the info there about 6 months ago,.

[Oliver Knuf]

This temperature story is nice, but it's only static dyno work. Place around 20 tapes per cylinder and drive the car w/engine, where it has to live (...on the road/track/Autobahn), You'll receive more concrete measurements of the maximal heat, that is reached at nearly every point I want to measure. Ok, you can't make diagrams and you can't see it directly in °F, but what you can tell then is, that you'll have hot spots on the cylinder, where the wear is bigger, when you use the just Type 1 plate instead of the more complex Type 4 sheet metal (Besides, who speaks about using it as it comes?). Measure cylinders after a life of driving, you'll see it!

You should talk to another dyno and test fetischist in Germany, that is Mr. Rolf Klaus in person (http://www.klaus-kaefertuning.de). He invented the underside head cooling (you can believe it or not) where cooling air streams through a heater hose to the middle of the head on the downside, to cool the engine as effective as it can be cooled...



...surely only with his Porsche style fan system.



Btw, this is definitely not my thing, but this is an example, how to develop the best of a part with a lot of tests and time, talk to him. I think, he'll still have some news for you, as he's pretty the same guy like you. Testing, testing, testing and saying (with facts on papers), that all what he builds is perfect in contrast to other tuners! Sorry, but that are just my 2 cents to that and a lot of other themes!

[Wally]

Oliver,
Could you attach those pictures again maybe? I can't 'see' them now, its just a small x in my screen.

That Klaus redesigned Porsche cooling shroud and special underside engine tin is a very interesting development indeed. Its under the heading of 'Luftkuhlung' (aircooling) on the Klaus site. Fortunately you don't have to speak german to understand those pictures. Now I understand why another very respected german tuner (Gerd Tafel, with his fully equipped mex beetle with 2733 cc T4 with FI that did measured (VW Speed)0-62 in 4,5 sec) use the Klaus intake and cooling system in their own cars...

Thanks for the update in the latest technology. Thats one of the great things about this forum IMO.

Walter

[SPEEDY57TUB]

Oliver, Klaus does some nice work! I love his shroud design, especially the profiling on th rear to address airflow directioning. Very innovative individual!

[zen]

sandeep, did you thread the holes drilled where the bail holes are? i am thinking not and assume that the stud threaded on both sides with a 3-5mm non-threaded area in the middle is the stud that is used there.

also, what size fitting are you using for the breather under those. i am thinking of using a 45 angle instead of straight so i can use it for some very slow oil filling for the lack of a better place.

[Sandeep]

Zen,

Yup, those are the ones. I just drilled the bail area so they just push in. I used loctite to secure them into the aluminum peice that the fan mount bolts to.

As for the breather, I bought the Bugpack breather kit and it came with the fittings that have an o-ring.

I drilled a hole BEHIND the breather tower (instead of the side, like in the instructions) because I'm going to route the breather tube THROUGH the shroud to keep the engine bay as clean of hoses as I can.

As for the oil filling, I filled the case before I bolted on the fan mount. On my engine, I have a factory breather vent on the right head (when viewed from the rear) where one of my breather tubes fit. Its really easy for me to fill the case from this fitting.

BTW, I talked to Oliver about the factory oil filter location. He said I could use the factory location with the BAS but use a smaller dia Rabbit filter. I'm getting the header ceramic coated anyways so this should help keep the radiated temps down in that area.

Hows your install coming ? I hope to have mine done in the next 3 weeks. I'm STILL waiting for my fan assembly to get here ... #@$$# USPS !

Sandeep

[zen]

so just to verify, no threading in the bail holes right?

i haven't done much in the past few weeks. i already bought a remote filter mount. i figured for $13 it gives me some flexibility. i need to find a ceramic coater around here too. need to re-research which coating to go with.

on the oil filling, i have the same option since i too have 2.0l heads. not being able to fit it yet, i wasn't sure if there was clearnace to do that. i like the idea of running it in the shroud to hide it.

and afterall the FAT deliberation, i am hitting the reality that i may have some extra cash available and may be able to do a bigger engine sooner. have to do some more math though and wait to see what my accountant has to say on the taxes. if so, i may ditch the FAT shroud and go to a sharpbuilt so i can close the decklid. another option is i have given the body/paint guy a link to this thread to see what creative decklid options he can come up with.

was just thinking, if jake builds an engine with a FAT shroud, does that make it a FAT RAT?

[Ephry73]

All of this information is very good, but what to use for a oil breather? make one up? buy it made? or buy the CSP one?


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