Strut question for 74 super

[Eatoniashoprat]

Originally Posted by evilC

Hi Mike, there is either an error in the text or they have automatically factored in a different constant. The equation that I use is:
WR{wheel rate} = (SF{spring frequency}/187.8)^2 x SW{sprung weight}. You can check this out on the Eibach Spring site for convenience:
http://performance-suspension.eibach...sion_worksheet as an example - just rearrange the equation or alternatively plug in the figures. You will see that the Cycles Per Minute (or Hz) are 80+. Remember on the front Macpherson struts the spring rate = the wheel rate for all intents and purposes and I have not deducted the unsprung weight from the corner weight as this is negligible.


If the standard spring rate on the front is 70-80lb/in then conventional wisdom suggests a 30% increase in rate for fast road that comes out to 91-104lb/in so that the 100lb/in is about right but the final value very much depends on your corner weight with all the extras you are carrying. On the rear where you suggest retaining the standard torsion bar the spring frequency is 95CPM on Humble's corner weights that will be too close to the front CPM of around 93CPM - that will induce uncomfortable pitching for and aft as the two frequencies are too alike, there needs to be at least a 10% difference. Why not add some coilovers to the rear with some light springs to increase the wheel rate?. The damper top mount will have some load capacity for light springing and if you get stiffer springs you could always add a 5 bar KC brace.


Clive

Thanks Clive, The wheel frequency in these equations is the natural frequency of the spring as installed with the given corner weight right? If this is the natural frequency then intuitively if you push down on the bumper and let go the spring should try to oscillate at its natural frequency (only with the shock trying to dampen it). The reason I started looking it it is because 80Hz didn't seem right but I can definitely see the car bouncing up and down at 1Hz. Wait! I just realized that you are talking in CPM (cycles per minute), and the other page is in Hz (cycles per second) and if you convert they're in the same ballpark. . Those darn units!


The calculations you did I believe were for Humbles car at 1900lbs, whereas my car is about 2200-2300lb with me in it. And actually the factory springs were measured by topline to be around 63 lbs, and the maxx springs I have right now are 71.5lbs. Without punching the numbers in *guess* tells me I should be in the 105-125lb/inch spring range.

For the rear it's either weld in the 2 extra bars to make mine a 5-bar (do these with the motor/tranny installed?) and go coilovers OR, go the cheap way and put in 944 bars, although with 125lbs/inch springs this is probably going to have a similar CPM to the 125lbs/inch and will need to be even stiffer. Or go 100lbs/inch springs to be on the low end of the spectrum and do 944 bars. Time to crunch some numbers! *grabs calculator*

not to mention the fact that I don't have a rear sway bar (yet?)

[Eatoniashoprat]

on a macpherson front end shouldn't the motion ratio be measured to the center of the tire? So the lever arm would now be something like 1:1.1 or so?

Also, using a lever arm of 1:1.277 in the back is giving me goofy numbers. I can't seem to replicate the ones you produced in the other thread. I'm getting CPM values that are huge (150+). This is using the spring rate values you gave for the stock and 944 TB at the shock position (186 and 216, respectively).

This is fun


Good info here at this link also

http://www.swayaway.com/TechRoom.php#MOTIONRATIO

[evilC]

Originally Posted by Eatoniashoprat

Thanks Clive, The wheel frequency in these equations is the natural frequency of the spring as installed with the given corner weight right? If this is the natural frequency then intuitively if you push down on the bumper and let go the spring should try to oscillate at its natural frequency (only with the shock trying to dampen it). The reason I started looking it it is because 80Hz didn't seem right but I can definitely see the car bouncing up and down at 1Hz. Wait! I just realized that you are talking in CPM (cycles per minute), and the other page is in Hz (cycles per second) and if you convert they're in the same ballpark. . Those darn units!


The calculations you did I believe were for Humbles car at 1900lbs, whereas my car is about 2200-2300lb with me in it. And actually the factory springs were measured by topline to be around 63 lbs, and the maxx springs I have right now are 71.5lbs. Without punching the numbers in *guess* tells me I should be in the 105-125lb/inch spring range.

For the rear it's either weld in the 2 extra bars to make mine a 5-bar (do these with the motor/tranny installed?) and go coilovers OR, go the cheap way and put in 944 bars, although with 125lbs/inch springs this is probably going to have a similar CPM to the 125lbs/inch and will need to be even stiffer. Or go 100lbs/inch springs to be on the low end of the spectrum and do 944 bars. Time to crunch some numbers! *grabs calculator*

not to mention the fact that I don't have a rear sway bar (yet?)

Well Spotted! The CPM rates and Hz rates should be a factor of 60 apart. If you multiply the Hz rate by 60 then the CPM rate is 48 - 60, which will give very soft suspension. Traditionally, spring rates in the States have been softer than European rates so maybe that accounts for the difference.

At the rear I was working on 1.27 as the motion ratio and using one of the webs torsion bar calculators the standard 22mm TB gave a notional spring rate of 186lb/in with a wheel rate of 145.5lb/in (95CPM). The 23.5mm bars gave 216lb/in, 170lb/in wheel rate and a CPM of 103.

Staying with Humbles figures if you use 100lb/in springs at the front the CPM is 93 and with standard 944 TBs the CPM is 103 that is the 10% variation we are looking for. You could also retain the standard TBs and add 30lb/in springs as coil overs.

Clive

[evilC]

Originally Posted by Eatoniashoprat

on a macpherson front end shouldn't the motion ratio be measured to the center of the tire? So the lever arm would now be something like 1:1.1 or so?

Also, using a lever arm of 1:1.277 in the back is giving me goofy numbers. I can't seem to replicate the ones you produced in the other thread. I'm getting CPM values that are huge (150+). This is using the spring rate values you gave for the stock and 944 TB at the shock position (186 and 216, respectively).

This is fun


Good info here at this link also

http://www.swayaway.com/TechRoom.php#MOTIONRATIO

In a true macpherson strut the king pin inclination goes down through the centre of the strut and through to the centre of the tyre tread. Therefore, the spring acts directly in line with the contact point so the ratio must be 1:1 I appreciate that on negative scrub suspensions that inclination point actually strikes inboard of the centre of the tyre contact point so the motion ratio is marginally larger but not much.

In all this appreciate that the calculated spring rates are in fact only the starting point to achieve the desired handling and ride parameters so dwelling on CPMs in anything other than as an indication of the rate will be counter-productive. It might be of interest that in the early '80s after a great deal of testing the very competitive Talbot Sunbeam Tarmac Rally Car was using CPMs of 128 front and 133 rear and that was much less than the circuit racers.

It's Friday and a long w/e beckons so I intend to cool the brain down with some cold beers - Bye Bye!

Clive

[Eatoniashoprat]

Thanks Clive this has really helped a lot.

If I input my weight into the calculations this is what I get:

100lb/in front
CPM 85

170lb/in rear wheel rate (23.5mm)
CPM 95

~10% difference.

If I go higher rate in the front I'd have to go coilovers or even bigger TB otherwise the CPM's become very close.

Have a good weekend! Have a cold one for the germanlook forum (I may have several)

Mike

[Eatoniashoprat]

I think I just found an error on the Eibach springs worksheet page.

In step 2 it shows WR = C/MR^2 (assuming no ACF)

But I'm pretty sure it should be WR = C*MR^2

Otherwise your wheel rates would be higher than your spring rates since the motion ration is less than 1.

'Tip2' on that page also contradicts 'step 2'.

[Humble]

Sorry for the delay, my comp at home ate it's hard drive a couple weeks ago :P

I run the 200# springs up front because I had tried the 300# setup which was far too stiff. Wally runs 300# up front and seems to like it just fine. My street bug is 2280 w/ full tank and driver (and stereo ), and running anything less than 200# put the front on the bump stops in hard corners or more often if I took a passenger. It was so bad that even with 120# (a good bit stiffer than the normal maxx springs) I murdered the bump stops on both sides and blew the struts on both sides in the front. This was at the maximum ride height the maxx struts offered.

I haven't started adjusting the rear spring rates yet but I have a pile of springs to sort through. For coilovers I was looking at 500#-600# on the street bug, but I need to get a cup brace in the car before I can make the switch. TB wise I started with 23.5mm bars then 25.5mm bars but with the heavy alu case and sub box in the back I think I need a bit more. I've got single adjustable qa1's waiting to go on and that will make finding spring rates a bit easier.

I tend to go by feel and work my way back to find the hard numbers. I also push my bug harder daily than most, so I tune it to that level. What I consider soft, others might find jarring or vise versa. Admittedly, the feel I'm going for is the E46 M3 because I found it to be one of the best compromises between track and street.

[Eatoniashoprat]

Originally Posted by Humble

Sorry for the delay, my comp at home ate it's hard drive a couple weeks ago :P

I run the 200# springs up front because I had tried the 300# setup which was far too stiff. Wally runs 300# up front and seems to like it just fine. My street bug is 2280 w/ full tank and driver (and stereo ), and running anything less than 200# put the front on the bump stops in hard corners or more often if I took a passenger. It was so bad that even with 120# (a good bit stiffer than the normal maxx springs) I murdered the bump stops on both sides and blew the struts on both sides in the front. This was at the maximum ride height the maxx struts offered.

I haven't started adjusting the rear spring rates yet but I have a pile of springs to sort through. For coilovers I was looking at 500#-600# on the street bug, but I need to get a cup brace in the car before I can make the switch. TB wise I started with 23.5mm bars then 25.5mm bars but with the heavy alu case and sub box in the back I think I need a bit more. I've got single adjustable qa1's waiting to go on and that will make finding spring rates a bit easier.

I tend to go by feel and work my way back to find the hard numbers. I also push my bug harder daily than most, so I tune it to that level. What I consider soft, others might find jarring or vise versa. Admittedly, the feel I'm going for is the E46 M3 because I found it to be one of the best compromises between track and street.

Thanks Humble, that's good to know. I'm trying to figure it out close as I can since I don't have other springs or torsion bars to play with. Very few Porches around here to steal TB's from!

I just know right now the 71.5# max springs are waay too soft, loaded up with gear for a weekend, with no one in the car I can easily move the front bumper down an inch and hit the bump stops

Do you think its necessary to run the helper springs up front with the 200# springs? Also, have you test fitted the QA1 coil overs with the 2.5" springs in the rear to see if the springs physically fit in the trailing arm?

[Humble]

I'd suggest starting with the 200# springs in front and go from there. They might feel a little stiff without gear or a passenger but won't bottom out when you do.

Is it a helper or tender spring? A helper spring is usually very light (around 10#), easily compresses, and is only used to keep the main spring seated at full droop. A tender spring is a fair bit heavier and used to make a dual rate spring basically. A tender spring might be 50-70# and easily compress during high load but would smooth out the jarring ride of the main spring around town.

Now with my setup I put coil over sleeves on the maxx strut body and with a 10" spring I found I need a helper spring to keep the spring seated. Using a 10" spring also gave me a fair bit of ride height adjustment.

I haven't had a chance to fit the qa1 coilovers on the rear but it's a fairly simple affair. Just drill a 2nd 1/2" mounting hole higher in the cup, and locate the lower shock mount with spacers. For the top, drill out the upper mount to 1/2" (kafer brace too) and put the shock in place. I think sandeep but up some pics of the lower mounts for the qa1's.

[Eatoniashoprat]

Originally Posted by Humble

Is it a helper or tender spring? A helper spring is usually very light (around 10#), easily compresses, and is only used to keep the main spring seated at full droop. A tender spring is a fair bit heavier and used to make a dual rate spring basically. A tender spring might be 50-70# and easily compress during high load but would smooth out the jarring ride of the main spring around town.

I didn't realize the difference in terminology I thought they were called the same thing, my bad.

[Eatoniashoprat]

FYI, I did some calculations for something closer to Humbles setup (stiffer) to see what it looked like, this is what I found. Also, I made a little spreadsheet that I could email if someone wanted to check it out.

Front:
175lbs/in
CPM = 113

Rear:
Stock TB combined with 200lbs/in coilovers
CPM = 126

F/R CPM difference = 10.5%

[Humble]

Here's my street car setup w/ full tank and driver:

LF 488 RF 437
LR 691 RR 633

Front: 925lbs. 41.1%
Left: 1179lbs. 52.4%
Cross: 1128lbs. 50.2%

Total: 2249lbs.

I run the 200# up front and i'm not sure what the CPM would be but I'd like to match it and add 10% or so CPM on the rear. You might be in the same territory with the subie swap.

[Eatoniashoprat]

I think that's very close to my weight, I might be 50-60 pounds heavier but that's about it.

I went autocrossing for the first time last night and it was a blast, managed to turn some decent times but the front was on the bump stops the whole time and it understeered pretty bad unless you already had the back end coming around. It was a very tight course

For 200# here are the numbers from my spreadsheet. For the coil over with the torsion bar I'm just adding the wheel rates, hope that's the right way to do it. I'd take them with a big grain of salt but here they are anyway.

Front
200lbs/inch
121 CPM

Rear
stock TB
250 lb/inch coilover
134 CPM

10% difference

Rear w/944 TB
250 lbs/inch coil over
139 CPM

13.1% difference

[evilC]

Mike, Do you know what your damper rates are? Are you running a rear anti-roll bar? You might find that stiffer dampers plus a rear ar bar might dial out your initial understeer. Personally, I intend to set mine up as a soft(ish - 100lb/in front 944N/A rear) with stiff damping as most of the roads around here (that are used for Road rallys) are fairly bumpy and I don't like the thought of the front skipping across the bumps particularly under initial braking.

In all of this of course lies the variation of conditions/use/driving styles that will give wildly different results.

Clive

[Eatoniashoprat]

Originally Posted by evilC

Mike, Do you know what your damper rates are? Are you running a rear anti-roll bar? You might find that stiffer dampers plus a rear ar bar might dial out your initial understeer. Personally, I intend to set mine up as a soft(ish - 100lb/in front 944N/A rear) with stiff damping as most of the roads around here (that are used for Road rallys) are fairly bumpy and I don't like the thought of the front skipping across the bumps particularly under initial braking.

In all of this of course lies the variation of conditions/use/driving styles that will give wildly different results.

Clive

Clive, The front dampers are Golf GTi inserts and the rear are KYB gas-adjuts. I haven't got into figuring out damper rates yet. I like your approach though, I think I need to try and get a spring that will keep the front end suspended enough that I can have >2" of travel and they will keep off the bump stops and then stiffen with dampers. I guess stiffer dampers will also keep it off the stops to a degree just need to try and balance that.

I don't have a rear anti-roll bar but it is in the plan. I've found a guy locally with an 86' 944 NA and an '87 944S. I've found conflicting info around what torsion bars are in those but I'm gonna scoop the TB's from the '87 and if either has a AR bar I'll get it too.

I haven't settled on a spring rate yet but before I jump into coil-overs I'll put in 944 TB's and rear AR bar, adjustable front dampers (recommendations?) and right now I'm thinking around 125-140 lbs/inch front springs. For the front springs I have to keep in mind that if I load up to go somewhere for the weekend I could be adding an extra 250 pounds (including passenger). Its definitely going to be a balance!

The roads here are also brutal, huge pot holes, wash outs, etc. With the freeze/thaw its near impossible to build a lasting road.

Mike