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  #526  
Old September 21st 2010, 12:43
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Sandeep Sandeep is offline
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400 HP in a daily driver ... congratulations

How's that cast iron flywheel holding up ? How much boost were you running on that run ? Because of you, I'm looking for a short nose G50 now

Thanks for the updates.

Sandeep
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  #527  
Old September 21st 2010, 15:54
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Wally Wally is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandeep View Post
How's that cast iron flywheel holding up ?
I dunno...but it does (obviously ). That is the part I would like to exchange the fastest if I could..but no-one makes a steel 228mm T4 as a regular part. I did see 200 and 215mm, but not (yet?) 228mm.. and a custum flywheel is very expensive. Thought about getting and welding up the steel 215mm, but not sure if one can just do that.

Quote:
How much boost were you running on that run ?
specially for you I 'print screened' the log of the run while I was there, cause I knew you were gonna ask that also since the boost varies (..) its hard to say what boost it was. Depends on when in the run, but nobody wants to hear that answer I suppose.
Boost does taper off and I think its the too small exhaust housing. This combined with the back pressure readings says it all imo. In defense of the turbo, I do suspect the initial high boost is some sort of spike and I need to back down the 'gain' setting on the EBC...but I wanted to run exactly like it was at Santa Pod when I did the 1/4 mile there.

To make things clearer: the car runs from right --> left side of the sheet!

Lemme know if you have any q's regarding the log, but look at that IDC climbing towards 80%! and those are 1000cc injectors (at 3.0 bar) run at 3,25bar fuel pressure...

If you look at the dyno sheet again, you may have noticed the power falling off as of 6200 rpm, while the run before it seemed to want to go on beyond the 6600 rpm limit we set then. Hence the 7000 rpm we ran this time...very dangerous as more boost and more rpm is tricky without chevy springs, but I went for it anyway as it ran like this rpm and boost in england and held up.
The ripple after 6200 rpm is valve starting to bounce of the seat imo...
So, I need better valve springs and a bigger turbo haha!

Quote:
Because of you, I'm looking for a short nose G50 now
Sandeep
Sorry 'bout that...
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Last edited by Wally; September 21st 2010 at 16:06.
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  #528  
Old September 22nd 2010, 04:57
70Turbobug 70Turbobug is offline
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Congrats Wally! That is really awesome! That curve is amazing - actually itīs not much of a curve,more like a rocket start.. If I read the log correct,your max boost was 1,46 bar? What springs are you running now? Do you think that your valves were beginning to float? Richard sent me an interesting link on springs they use in drag bikes. http://www.psisprings.com/index.php?...ask=view&id=20.
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  #529  
Old September 22nd 2010, 10:14
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Thanks for the detailed information and posting the log.

I have 370lb springs in the twin plug heads, but they will lose some pressure as they are run, estimating 10% so should end up at 330lbs. I told Len that I would not be boosting past 20psi though, or revving past 6500 rpm.

I based my turbine selection (Garret GT3076R, 0.63 hot side) on information provided mostly through Subaru boards, as the STI engine is 2457cc vs my 2413cc, and I had no aircooled data at the time. It is 4v vs 2v though as far as valves per cylinder is concerned, but I think the 2v per head should have better intake velocity.

The .63 is supposed to provide better spool but not as much top end as the .82, which is the next step up for the Garret GT3076R.

I was looking at an honest 300 FWHP motor, not stressed but living a comfortable life, but it looks like 350-375 FWHP should be more realistinc.

Thanks for all of the information, your motor build has been very educational and inspirational and I hope to be able to join your ranks in the coming months.

Sandeep
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  #530  
Old September 22nd 2010, 13:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 70Turbobug View Post
If I read the log correct,your max boost was 1,46 bar?
Not really: that point was just where the cursor was at that moment. More random therefore. Boost was about 1.0 bar at 4K, then climbing further to just over 1.7 bar at around 5K, then tapering to 1,5 at 6K and further down to 1,4 bar at 7K.
On the road, in 4th, 1 bar is reached at 3600 rpm if its not too hot outside.
Just follow the horizontal lines on the y-axis at the right. The scale is there. If you can read plots, it shouldn't be too hard to see what is reached when
Quote:
What springs are you running now? Do you think that your valves were beginning to float?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally;
The ripple after 6200 rpm is valve starting to bounce of the seat imo...
I use the Berg dual springs with Ti retainers. I will try to install my CB650's over winter. That will sort that out.

@Sandeep: I think every motor is different and maybe I have restrictions elsewhere, but boost is tapering despite my EBC set at closed-loop... so I suspect my 8cmē turbine (~0,63-ish I think) is just too small for these kind of hp. My back pressure readings kinda confimed this imo.
For an even bigger engine like your comming 2413cc, I would surely get the 0,82 A/R if you had free choice. You may loose some spool as opposed to the 0,63, but you already got that covered by the 200cc's more you have over mine...
I also looked heavily at what Subaru owners use (hence my DOM3 I got off a us Suby owner) and this combined with my current experience, I would surely get the 82 for your 2413cc. Our engines are just more responsive by themselves somehow I think.
You don't want to know what my next turbo/turbine size will be...
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Last edited by Wally; September 22nd 2010 at 13:46.
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  #531  
Old September 22nd 2010, 15:23
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Sandeep Sandeep is offline
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I'll keep the .82 in mind before I take the .63 out of its new packaging

My guess on your next turbo is a minimum of a GT35R (GT3582) or somewhere there abouts ... 400 to 650 HP on a minimum 2.0l.

You got to 400hp quickly with this build so I'm thinking ~500hp minimum is your next goal

Sandeep
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  #532  
Old September 22nd 2010, 16:35
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Wally Wally is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandeep View Post
I'll keep the .82 in mind before I take the .63 out of its new packaging
A _very_ nice compromise would be the Tial stainless housing Its ~0.78 A/R iirc and saves a lot of weight on the right side of the car...
Quote:
My guess on your next turbo is a minimum of a GT35R (GT3582) or somewhere there abouts ... 400 to 650 HP on a minimum 2.0l.

You got to 400hp quickly with this build so I'm thinking ~500hp minimum is your next goal

Sandeep
I have no hp goal, but only seek the 'perfect' turbo.
Its not anything like you mention though...
When (if?) it gets here, I'll sure let you know/show you. It is meant for after an engine upgrade tbh, but it would be interesting to try it on the 2,2 first and see the difference later on the bigger engine (which will take a year or two probably..).
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  #533  
Old September 25th 2010, 05:09
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Just finally got confirmation that the new turbo had been produced and a small batch was shipped from the Borg-Warner plant to Full-Race.com which just shipped one out to me

How big? Its a T4 Twin-scroll with a compressor in between a 35R and a 40R, so its fairly big

Also got a second hand, but unused waste-gate from evil bay, but need a second one because of the twin-scroll lay-out.
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  #534  
Old September 25th 2010, 10:48
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Damn, those are some good numbers. What turbo are you using now? I'd like to clear 300whp with the addition of an intercooler.
Have you looked into the holset HX35 turbo. The guys in Europe seem to like holsets. They are cheap and make a lot of power and they are very strong.
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  #535  
Old September 25th 2010, 10:55
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Originally Posted by Wally View Post
Just finally got confirmation that the new turbo had been produced and a small batch was shipped from the Borg-Warner plant to Full-Race.com which just shipped one out to me

How big? Its a T4 Twin-scroll with a compressor in between a 35R and a 40R, so its fairly big

Also got a second hand, but unused waste-gate from evil bay, but need a second one because of the twin-scroll lay-out.

Hey wally you finally going to do the twin scroll turbo setup. Glad you are because i want to use a twin scroll Holset on my 1835cc engine once i build it.
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  #536  
Old September 26th 2010, 11:06
70Turbobug 70Turbobug is offline
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Quote:
For an even bigger engine like your comming 2413cc, I would surely get the 0,82 A/R if you had free choice. You may loose some spool as opposed to the 0,63, but you already got that covered by the 200cc's more you have over mine...
I agree 100%. The .63 Housing will be too small for a 2.4 L engine.It would spol extremely quick,but I donīt think you would be happy with it.Our Boxer engines make torque really quick and spool turbos usually quicker than other engines,especially as soon as the engine is under load.IMHO due to the 2 valve design and "uncluttered" chamber and realtively short intake and exhaust ports and the large amounts of air volume and air speed generated at lower rpms.Maybe the Subaru guys have to choose a smaller housing to "dial in" their spool up time due to the central/single throtlebody and long intake runners? Just a hunch though on my part,I donīt know enough about the suby for a better argument.
Another thought of mine is,that Wally may need a larger housing because the core engine is more that of a high rpm engine with the large bore and short stroke.So maybe his "power range" is much higher in the rpm band and out of the optimum efficiency range of the current turbine housing.Also the cam (here we go again..) has enough duration and lift to deliver higher rpms and with the 114° (?) LC more stability and valve control and longer off seat time.
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  #537  
Old September 27th 2010, 00:48
Clatter Clatter is offline
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My understanding is that the Vanagon Waterboxer flywheel is forged.
Unlike the Bus, which is cast.

if you see them side-by-side it looks that way.

They both have the same 228, dimensions, etc...
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  #538  
Old September 27th 2010, 06:10
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Wally Wally is offline
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Originally Posted by Clatter View Post
My understanding is that the Vanagon Waterboxer flywheel is forged.
Unlike the Bus, which is cast.

if you see them side-by-side it looks that way.

They both have the same 228, dimensions, etc...
Unfortunately, that myth was busted also...both are cast.
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  #539  
Old September 27th 2010, 23:56
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Sounds like you're getting a turbo somewhere in the gt37 family I've actually been looking at the gt37 turbos but I don't have a twin scroll setup. I did find a duall ball bearing replacement cartridge for my t3/t4 so that is a tempting alternative.
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  #540  
Old September 28th 2010, 15:50
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I dunno the GT37 family, but this is the Borg-Warner that arrived today. Its freaking HUGE! but I love it





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