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VRSICK
August 12th 2002, 13:44
Hi. I know this site is kinda new, and there is way more traffic in both the vwvortex forums, and shoptalkforums, but you guys designed this site like your tryin hard, so I said what the heck, i'll become a germanlook.com subscriber....

anywho

ok, this is kinda long, but hopefully someone can hel me out. I have a 70 bug, already has some mods done to it. its a standard bug, non super, but so from what I hear, the rear end I have is similar to that of a super beetle, just my steering is more primitave?????

I want to make her into a german looker, but i'm only 50 % sure on the specifics on what to do, and if half the **** i'm talking about is even possible.

Its goal is to be both a street performer, and a show car. I have many good ideas about this car, some were taken from pictures that i've seen, but most I haven;t seen on a bug yet.

The very first would be the engine.

I'm thinkin about building a 2.5-2.8 liter type 4, with a 50 or 75 shot for the track. Does this sound doable? have you type 4 guys actually seen this kind of setup before? People tell me that the type 4 is alot better for nitrous then the type 1 is, not sure why, they both look alike to me from the out side :-)

k, so there my question, I wanna see how long it will take to get a responce.....

sincerely
-Mike

Sandeep
August 12th 2002, 15:44
Hi Mike,,

Thanks for joining us. You'll be sure to find answers to your questions here in this forum.

One thing though...about site traffic.....We designed this forum to be specific to one 'look' and one type of VW..... we are not really interested in Golfs or New Beetles or Audi's (There are lots of boards out there that cater to those who are interested in these models)

If you want to learn about making your bug handle and perform (merging aircooled VW's with high tech) then you've come to the right place.

Oliver will answer any engine questions you may have, but with an engine like that...you're going to need some brakes. Check out the tech section for the 993 Turbo Brake Upgrade article for some serious stopping power.

Sandeep

Superman
August 12th 2002, 21:21
Originally posted by VRSICK

the rear end I have is similar to that of a super beetle, just my steering is more primitave?????

This is correct, the rear IRS is the same between the models. Post in the suspension forums and we'll talk :D

Oliver Knuf
August 13th 2002, 11:40
My first question is, how fast do you want to go and how many horses do you want to have before using NOS? I have absolutely no experience with NOS, only used it one time in a car from a friend, as NOS systems are rare in Germany, but I think, if you want to build an engine, that is thaat big, there will be no need for nitro, as it only leans out the mixture and makes more damage to cost intensive parts, than you have fun over the short time of using it. It's just an opinion, I'm sure, that there's a way to use both. Help me with more infos, I give you some tips and pictures....

VRSICK
August 13th 2002, 12:56
I'm probably lookin at around 170 before the nos, still no idea as to what borexstroke combo will give me 170 HP, or how much it will even cost, but if anyone can throw me some numbers, or links as to where to buy type 4 long blocks, that would be a great help......

You dont think it will be necesary to use the Nitrous? well, i've only been in a 60 HP bug before, so I dont know what 170 would feel like, but i'll wait and see if its needed or not...

anyways, yea if any of you guys know where to get type 4 long blocks, that would be great:D

Rouser
August 13th 2002, 18:51
Check with Raby's Aircooled Technology (http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm) about one of his MassIVe Type 4s; he's on this side of the U.S.

170HP is very do-able (he gets 150 dyno-proven HP out of his 2270 T-IV's), but "... 50-70 shot for the track (?)" is just asking for torched hardware; I've seen great drivers in lower HP cars drive circles around high HP posers.

Just build/buy it right the first time, and leave the NOS for the ricers.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/image_uploads/WavingFlag.gif

Oliver Knuf
August 14th 2002, 04:50
You can get your 170 horses with a good done 2,4l (103mm x 71mm) together and even more with a bigger combination. 48mm intakes together with a 38mm to 40mm exhaust in good ported heads, a cam at around 295-300° and a c/r of 9:1 is all you need, besides a pair of 44mm IDF's and a good flowing exhaust system. If you take a 78mm or 80mm crank into that combo, you will go up to 15-20HP more, go with 48mm carbs and over the 300° durations, you'll receive even more. You see, there's no real need for NOS and btw, a combo in 103mm x 71mm is even cheaper than any other 78mm x 96mm! If money plays no role, go even bigger with the crank, then you've got it. If reliability is a thing for you, Use a 78-84mm crank to 96mm bore combo, but then with excellent build-on goodies.

At least, we've got 2l street engines (high compression, high duration) done here, that reach the 165-170HP, too. Our Cup engine produced slightly above 180HP, with a 74mm x 92mm combo and loads of goodies. That engine runned in several races and was just overhauled one time a year. Top HP was reached at 6900rpm.

VRSICK
August 16th 2002, 10:28
ok, well in that case, i'm goin for about 200 HP, dont know why, it just seems like a good round number. If I can get that kind of performance from a NA type 4, and still have some reliability, then i'd opt to go the NA route...

BTW, where are you guys getting your long blocks from(besides raby)

Griznant
August 16th 2002, 15:04
Raby's getting over 180hp out of his 2270 "packages" now. That is pretty impressive.

As for 200hp in a bug? You say you've only been in a 60hp bug? I think you need to try some stepping stones first.

One of my friends drove a 60hp bug. He thinks, "Hey, goes pretty well." So, he bought an 1835 with dual 44 Webers. WHOA, this thing goes REAL well. You know, smoking supercharged Pontiacs and stuff.

Decided to build a 2270. Lots of tricks and upgrades, goes through the motions, puts it together. We fire it up, and everything seems fine. He set the compression low (about 8.6:1) just to get a good feel for how it would run. What we didn't know was that the cam and lifters he was sent from the supplier were not both Webcam (the cam was, but lifters were not). After a short time running the lifters ate the cam.

BUT, what we can both tell you is that this thing was completely NOT RIGHT. 3rd gear at 20mph, plant your foot and it would move out with authority. 3rd gear turning a corner at idle, floor it and it would spin the rear tires. SERIOUS torque.

THAT'S WITH LIFTERS EATING THE CAM!!!!

So, we tore it back down, got the right cam and lifters, upgraded his ignition system, and bumped the compression to 9.5:1.

Wanna guess how it'll run now.

Trust me, 150hp+ in a bug is just wrong. Even 100hp is pretty damned fun.

Later,

G

VRSICK
August 17th 2002, 02:21
see, I've heard that before, but still, i've been in, and drove, and handled cars with that type of reaction, and I feel that I can handle that type of power. Even if I couldn't, what do I do, undertune it? half throttle it? no biggie, hey its worse having not enough HP, but having too much, you could always cut back on some...... :->


anyways, where should I start shopping for type 4 long blocks??? and short blocks actually.....

Oliver Knuf
August 24th 2002, 06:45
You've seen my solution in the other thread, VRSICK.

Btw, where's the difference between getting more than 180HP out of a 94mm x 82mm Type 1 combo or a 96mm x 78mm Type 4 combo with more than 180HP? Physically, besides the slight exhaust restriction and a bit weight, there's no difference. Take my engine as an example, that wil reach the 200HP mark with a 84mm x 96mm combo. I don't know, where's the problem or why not getting this HP rates out of the Type 4 engines, there is NO special secret and you don't have to be a god-like master-technician. Is it uncommon for you or something mavellous?

Sorry, I don't want to start any discussions, that go into the false direction, but sometimes, I think, that some engine combo's are called god-like, besides in other countries it's somewhat common and unspectacular, I don't know why are there so many words about it.

kdanie
September 3rd 2002, 17:28
VRSICK, There are very few places to buy a good quality performace type 4 long or short blocks in the states. Try Fat Performance, they do alot of type 4 offroad racing engines. There are several places to get stock short/long blocks but that won't get the HP you want.
I suggest building your own engine, it's not rocket science and that way you know what you've got and can't blame anyone else if it isn't what you thought it would be. Quality parts are available from several sources but I recommend John at Aircooled.net. John only sells good stuff-no junk like you find at alot of VW parts places.
Oliver is correct, it seems that American type 4 engine builders are having a hard time matching the German engine builders when it comes to HP, but we are gaining some.
If you are going for serious HP you will need serious brakes and handling. Sounds like a big project.....go for it.
ken

vujade
September 3rd 2002, 18:09
ive been wondering about that horsepower difference myself...I see most of the euro type 4 with more HP......thinks that make you go hmmm :)

Oliver Knuf
September 4th 2002, 03:25
A simple fact, where I wonder, why it's like that is, that US HP ratings are measured differently, e.g. the 1,6l 50HP engine here has 55HP in the States. You measure on engine dyno's mainly, we measure at the wheel mostly. Could it be, that Euro engines would even have more power, when putting it to a US dyno?

kdanie
September 4th 2002, 11:17
Oliver, Interesting thought, but I doubt we are THAT far behind the Germans. I think the big difference in the engines is the cams and heads.
I think the cam duration is measured a little differently between europe and the US, but I am not sure, we usually compare durations at .050" lift as opposed to advertised lift. Our cam manufacturers say there is little flow below .050" lift so duration added under that lift will have no real effect on HP. I think it would help valve train longivity though by starting and stoping the valve with an easier motion. My cam is a custom hyraulic grind using the WBX intake lobe profile on both intake and exhaust. Over .050" it is compareable to a 285/.420" lift performance cam but the ramps are gentler. Duration from the time the valve starts moving is over 300 deg.
I have heard that square exhaust port heads are more common in Germany. In the US we tend to stay away from them, some say they don't flow well but mostly due to exhaust system availablity, which isn't very good for our oval port head anyway! Some of our better engine builders are just now finding out how well a good set of CNC ported square port heads can flow.
What compression do you tend to run in Germany? Over here 9-1 is considered high by most people. Piston/combustion chamber technology is advancing though, allowing 12-1 on 93 octane pump gas, but people are slow to embrace change!
I always enjoy hearing the German side of things, knowlege is good and I am more open minded than most of the ACVW people in the states.
ken

Alex
September 4th 2002, 13:09
Some Remmele replacement heads (Vanagon heads) were flow tested. Those are CNC machined heads with 45/38 valves I think. I am not sure about that.
Anyways....those heads out flowed FAT's big 48X40 heads from Shad. That should tell you something. And I think that the flow of those heads was quite significant.
A couple of months ago when I posted the coming of those heads oh the STF everybody said that those heads were no good.

I find that people here in America look more locally than finding additional information on what you can get. Exhaust for those heads are not that exspenive either. The only exhaust system that I consider being good in the US is the one from Tangerine Racing which starts at 1200$ US and goes up to 1900$ US.
The other thing is that at first people compalin about those parts being so expensive but if someone develops a similar part here for the same price everybody says how great it is.

I am not saying that one or the other is better but after following the development I can say that posting information about products being available in Germany and not in the US (yet) is a risky business. Too many negative things were posted aobut them without having any proof. Theory sure sounds great.
Example......BAS CUP exhaust: Price 1000-1100$ US
This is a stainless steel exhaust that was said has poor fittment and nobody was sure that it ouwpld make the power that was promised. Jake dynoed the smaller one and claimed 30HP more.

For that price I will take the fittment problems and make it fit on my engine and I would get the more expensive 1000$ CUP exhaust. Even tuners like Oliver will tell you that you can make it even better by changing the mufflers on it.
Again....this is just an example but I think it proofs a point.
The US has some great engine builders and tuning shops. the deveopment of special parts is just starting in the US.

Lets wait and give it some time.
I also remember that a lot of parts were not know in the US that are available. A reason for this site. The engine gallery has some pics of the vanagon head exhausts.
Alex

kdanie
September 5th 2002, 16:33
Alex, $1,000 for any exhaust is may too much for me! That is why I am building my own header to suit my engine combination. It will cost me about $350 including the ceramic coating and muffler. I have 3 of the 4 pipes laid out and tacked, I ran out of bends and have to order a couple more to finish the 4th pipe. Building a header is not as hard as people think. It takes a lot of thought and patience but I find it an interesting challenge-getting 4 pipes starting at different places to end up at the same place and the same length with out interfearing with the rest of the engine can be quite the head scratcher. To make matters more challenging, I positioned the collector under the valve cover on the passenger side so my collector extension pipe will run accross the rear of the engine inside the rear apron with the muffler tucked in the fenderwell like the "hide-out" type 1 systems.

ken

Alex
September 5th 2002, 16:41
If you take some pics when it is done we are happy to post it up to the Engine gallery.

Alex

kdanie
September 6th 2002, 10:45
Alex,
I will try and post some pics when the header is back from the coater. I learned to TIG weld yesterday, it's soooo choice!! Much easier to control than MIG and cleaner too. I'm no exhaust artist like Chris at Tangerine Racing but I can do ok.
ken