Spray bars for the rockers arms

[effvee]

Hello everyone
Question, is there anyone that sells a kit for adding a oiling system for the rocker arms and valve stems.
I had oil seals installed on my intake which will even more starve the valves of oil, and the notorious low oil to the rocker arms

[Oval]

Hi effvee - where did you get that info?

I have an comp motor that sees 7500rpm every time the button is pushed ... no issues with standard rocker gear.

Other, street, motors I own (or have owned) have covered in excess of 100,000 miles with standard rocker gear - again no issues with rocker gear except for occasional pitted adjusting screw. No failures, no shaft galling, no problems.

Ever.

[effvee]

Hi, it's not that the failure rate is high, but oil control in vw is not the best.
I have had my last engine seize a valve and brake off due to lack of oil.
So,a spray bar is just extra protection.

[judgie]

sounds like a lot of work for not a lot of benefit. ohc then yes its somthing that would be needed.
imho getting the oil out of the rocker chamber is harder than getting the oil up there.

[Oval]

Hi, it's not that the failure rate is high, but oil control in vw is not the best.
I have had my last engine seize a valve and brake off due to lack of oil.
So,a spray bar is just extra protection.

Possibly you were just unlucky with a guide or valve.

Disregard that one unlucky incident and keep everything standard - the simple factory set-up works very well with no reliability problems in drag-race, and off-road/endurance situations

[effvee]

Hi, here's some history on that blunder.
It was my type one 2332, the choices were either millings 30mm steel pump, or standard 26mm.
I had to choose either, stock relief springs and 30mm pump. Or high pressures springs and 26mm pump.

Somewhere I got it mixed up, I think I installed the high pressure springs with the 30mm pump.

This caused multiple times of damaging my frame ph-1 filter. I'd drive 50 miles home, and by the time I got there;I would have an oil puddle on the ground, and my entire deck lid just dropping with oil from a damaged filter..

Somewhere in all of this on the freeway going to work I had an engine miss. I towed the car home and it sat. Only in the last year have I disassembled the heads.
I thought my rocker shaft nut had came apart. I was just pissed with all of the issues happening.

So now, I'm back at it. I will at some point put together a type IV engine. This engine I had big dreams for. 3.0 liter, engine plus heads, rod crank, oil pump, are all supposed to support a high horsepower turbo engine.
A 911-11 blade fan, with small alt pulley for traffic condition, and a larger crank pulley. But when I had the pulley made I might have went too large on the pulley diameter, it covers about 1 inch of the top of the oil pump area. I had choose the 33mm sheddic (spelling) pump/full flow. So tomorrow on thanksgiving day I'm going to mock up the case/crank/oil pump cover area and either be happy or @amn pissed off. I had all of the stock oil pressure reliefs milled off, in order to run external oiling system, even regulated/externally.

[Oval]

Welcome back!

I know what it feels like to be pissed off with a car or engine... it's usually because something has broken. Usually an aftermarket part :(

[effvee]

Hi everyone,I took some pictures today of my oil pump to pulley area. I don't seem to be able to download the pics.

If I use the sheddic pump(spelling) there will be no issues. I e-mailed pauter and sent pics.
Pauter pump may work, I didn't see a scavenge circuit on the pauter pump. Given the fact that the push rod tubes aid in oil return, how does the over amount of oil stay in the heads; is it from sudden acceleration? The push rods can't supply the over oiling Iissue. Doesn't the scavenge process airoate the oil?

[judgie]

on a high revving engine thats normally got bigger pistons in it the crank case pressure is much high and can even be several psi positive in the case. add to this the extra rpm means extra oil flow as the pump is pumping more oil and the oil that gets up into the heads cant flow back down the push rod tubes.
i have seen drain tubes added to the rocker chamber on some engines to try and get the oil away and back to the crank case.
I very much doubt the valve seized due to lack of oil, more likely it tagged the piston first and bent, or the guide collapsed and grabed the valve.
in 20 years of working on these engines and the engine builders i work with i have never seen any one need more oil n the heads. thats not to say your engine does not need it but IMHO it wont.

[effvee]

Hi, thanks for replying. This engine was my daily driver, I was not in a race/high performing mod. In southern California 75mph is basically the normal driving speed; that's when it happened. Yes the piston did hit the valve, but the valve shouldn't been there at that time; stuck for some reason.

On this same engine, in a earlier post,I spoke about having a low oil light on after adding some AN-8 lines to a remote oil cooler. At that time Walter responded starting that a-8 line would not cause a low oil pressure problem. The lines were routed to above the left rear cv-joint.
One thing I have left out was, within that same day of low oil light,I had a engine fire. The fire was due to a stuck intake valve. I did not know the engine was on fire, electrical was going out(do to the fire),I pulled over saying what now! Just sitting there in a parking lot thinking, when a young man ran over to me and told me I was on fire.

So, back to my problem of mixing and matching, pumps ,springs and lines; was to many issues for the lubrication circuit.I

End result, piston did hit the valve, but because of seizure. On the day of engine failure I had no warnings and I believe oil pressure was good.
After the fire I just re-wired stuff due to the fire had done some damage, the fire came through the intake port.
I'm not a trusting proponent of the oil control valves in a bug any more. When i resurrect my 2332, I am going to use the jay-cee direct oiling system, along with his oil control filter mount. Yes remote cooler and pressure reliefs valves.

However, on a more positive note, this now topic is for my type IV engine. If I can get away with a pauter oil pump, I'll add it. I don't think the autocraft pump will install. My type IV engine oil supply will be supplied externally,and regulated externally. Since i modded that case to adapt a type one extra sump to it, I'll use the autocraft external oil pick up to pump.

[70Turbobug]

Hey effvee, I can relate to what you have experienced and I´ve had similar issues with type 1 engines,never with a type 4.It doesn´t have to do with it being a type 1 or type 4,but eventhough I might get beaten for this...the mass produced products in the US for the VW aircooled is just plain crap.They make a good paperweight b,but have no place on a quality engine.Melling,Shadek ist garbage.Either buy Pauter or Autocraft or keep the stock oilpump.The stock type 4 oilpump is good for just about any application.Armin Klein uses stock pumps on his turbo engines and has also never had an oil problem.Key to a good oil system is and pressure balance is proper crankcase ventilation and large enough oil lines.Running a dash 8 oil line will not cut it on a large engine or high horsepower engine. Oil lines should be dash 10 or dash 12 if you run a 3 liter. Crank case ventilation is extremely important also,it must be large enough,starting with dash 12 or dash 16 vent hose and a breather box that has at least the same displacement as the engine.Other than that, I agree 100% with Oval..

Mark

[effvee]

Hi, well it all depends now on fitment on my engine.I would love to upgrade to autocraft,especially with the scavange ports for the heads. With my choice of serpentine pulleys,I have clearance issues.if I could post some pics; but my computer is sick I would share what I see.

[Oval]

With antique rocker gear design you do NOT need much oil 'up top' so super duty oil pumps are a WOTAM.
I have schadeck (sp?) oil pumps in my motors. Its tolerances are - and always have been - great (used by my engine builder for 30 years). 1916cc, webers etc.
No filters
No coolers
No oil drain lines
No opportunity for leaks or spills
No messing about

[effvee]

Ok, from what I'm getting is,I won't need all of the excess. I really think that my pulley size, has taken the pauter and autocraft choices off the table of possibility.

Question, basically I see allot of other engine builders engines that I would like my engine to equal. The suspension maker MBT. Their car I noted had an upgraded oil supply on it, plus it looks like they have their system scavenging.

So, it can't hurt, maybe I can re-ask the question of the spray bar subject, and see if I can get some pro v. cons to it. Taking into fact that many cons have been already stated.

[judgie]

the thing is the only part of the stock rocker gear that needs oil is allready supplied oil via the push rods. its the rocker to shaft that needs the oil and a small splash on the valve tip if your on stock rockers.
only thing i have seen on high rpm motor with big valve spring pressures is swivel feet adjusters seizing then breaking, not sure if this is down to poor parts of there seizing due to lack of oil.

[effvee]

Well, everything moving needs oil, this includes the valve guides. At the time I had CBs rhino rockers and elephant feet adjusters..

I think the point is being missed here, my point is; I would like to know how to make/install a low psi oil spray bar.

Honestly speaking, a larger pump and system does not hurt anything, except your wallet. My intake valves now have seals.I thank you all for your responses.

[70Turbobug]

[QUOTE]I think the point is being missed here, my point is; I would like to know how to make/install a low psi oil spray bar./QUOTE]

You could have a T off of your oil pressure switch with a brake line going to the valve covers that have 2 T-fittings each. Drill 2 holes and cut M6 threads and use M6 wire welding tips as jets. You will have to make adapters out of round bar between the T and welding tip.

[Oval]

take off the seals and your valves will get the oil they need to survive... IF that was the problem

[flat]

Keep it simple..the pushrods are your oil delivery to the heads. Just mod that system if you feel you need more oil....external oil lines to the heads etc sounds like the beginning of a story of the car being broken down at the side of the road (increasing failure points) lol

Try Mr Hoovers suggestions:

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.ca/2009/10/hvx-mods-how-to-do-it-to-it.html?m=1

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.ca/2007/05/hvx-mods.html?m=1


And ditch the valve seals. If your guides aren't knackered you dont need them in NA situation...not sure if you are on boost, in that case:

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.ca/2006/11/vw-valves-guides-and-seals.html?m=1

Lanner

[effvee]

take off the seals and your valves will get the oil they need to survive... IF that was the problem

Hi, that's not what I ment. I mean to say,I have valve stem seals so using an added oil supplier, such as a spray bar won't cause a smoking issue.

I do prefer oil seals,I do not discount the possibility of faulty parts. But then that opens another door for me:o. I have two sets of CB's 044 heads. The head the had this issue were the CB's 044 super mag plus heads. My 2110 engine that's supposed to become a blow through turbo will have the second set of 044 heads.

Jorge at EMW, did a good repair, that head should have been trash.

[effvee]

Keep it simple..the pushrods are your oil delivery to the heads. Just mod that system if you feel you need more oil....external oil lines to the heads etc sounds like the beginning of a story of the car being broken down at the side of the road (increasing failure points) lol

Try Mr Hoovers suggestions:

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.ca/2009/10/hvx-mods-how-to-do-it-to-it.html?m=1

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.ca/2007/05/hvx-mods.html?m=1


And ditch the valve seals. If your guides aren't knackered you dont need them in NA situation...not sure if you are on boost, in that case:

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.ca/2006/11/vw-valves-guides-and-seals.html?m=1

Lanner

Lanner hi, thanks for the info.
1. No matter what oil pump I choose, the circuit.
2. It must get filtered
3. It MUST REGULATE, this is something that all agree on;"the unpredictable pressure relief valves is due to dissimilar expansion rate of metals". Magnesium and steel expands differently. Then, there is the very small amount of oil in the sump 3.5 quarts. 24psi@2500 rpm is stupid.
Once operating temp is reached, it supposed to be guaranteed 17psi @idle. My two cents say it's a crap shoot if everything gets its needed amount of lubricant. The guides only get lubbed by flickering oil droplets from the rockers, that's fine for stock.
Do 70mph for about 30 minutes and then get caught in bumper to bumper traffic, and watch the low oil light come on and temp rise. I've been there did that.

Jay-cee enterprise has a bi-pass fitting, along with the needed circuit plugs bi-pass the stock regulator circuit, look on his site. His filter base has a regulator built in. I am not going to use the stock oil cooler either, grommets won't hold the pressure; so yes to a remote cooler.
I truly believe the stock stuff need to be kept in the stock arena.

Sorry, the whole lubrication circuit needs overhauling, enough of the bandages. We are going hypo on this whole engine, and believing the oil circuit is ok as is nah:o

[flat]

To each their own opinion. I'll just say that I respect the engineering that went into the design on the vw engine and wholesale changes are not required to make it work, regardless of stock or hypo. If the parts are all in good shape then they work. If they are knackered then you'll be going around in circles bandaging and "upgrading".

I've done road trips with a t1 motor in my last split bus 500+ miles(one way) at gps 70mph with no issues, with just stops for fuel. No overheating, no oil flickering etc. Stock doghouse oil system with ext filter.

Not trying to deviate you from your plan, this is just my experience. I don't believe in modifying modern valve stem seals on a t1 engine. Just the stock square rings that ride on the valve. They do the trick by NOT being fixed to the guide.

Lanner

[Oval]

I hope this demonstrates that standard rocker gear and a fundamentally standard oil system can support high performance:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=553759521342786

This was achieved with no external filter, no external cooler (therefore no leak-prone external oil lines), no fancy fan, no funny business, standard rocker gear and pushrods (of course set-up to suit).

CNC-ported 044 heads, 1916cc, Webers, counterweighted VW crank with prepped standard rods.
Engine carries a power pulley and a small (500mL) deep sump.

And it was 40+ (105F) degrees!

Keep it simple, build it right, and it will survive

[dd-ardvark]

Wow Effvee, reading from the beginning to this point, one thing thing became very apparent. You never got your original question answered. :shocked:“Is there anyone that sells a (spray bar) kit for adding a oiling system for the rocker arms and valve stems.”
I've been searching for this very thing since 2011 and as of yet …, No.:cool:

That said, performance V8 motors often use these, but the lowly flat4 gets none.
As with the progression of time and horsepower this well come to pass that it will be common place, even on our cars somewhere in the future.

Now that I got that out of my system..., you could use a single stage dry sump pump and plumb the pumps pressure side just as stock and the first stage / suction side that would return sucked up oil to your reservoir tank could then be plumbed as a dedicated oil sprayer. How you go about building this is up to you. But I'd copy the V8 boyz and run an aluminum line inside the valve cover and drill one or two 0.030” holes above each keeper face and spring area. Additionally you could cut this gear set and housing down to 15mm, remember your not feeding pressure to the bearings, just spraying oil. Or the easy way and cut a groove in the cover to be self relieving of to much pressure.

Now Effvee, I build widgets from time to time and I've found it best to close my garage door and just build it no matter what the nay sayers say. So whether theirs a need on someones else's car is not the point..., you want one for your ride, that is the point.:D

You work out the details and build a kit..., people will buy it. That includes me!

Enjoy the day, dd-ardvark / David