T5 Oxy-Boxer

[Pillow]

Anyone on here running or building a T5 Oxy-Boxer?

After pulling a 2.1 MV engine I just see so much potential, but few details are out there on what exactly needs done to make it work.

The real hurdle I see it machining the 94s to fit the WBX case. Everything else is normal details.

Also I do not plan on relocating the head studs. The holes are for 10mm studs but it is stepped to a 8mm head stud. My plan is to put in "case savers" to essentially bush the 10mm to an 8mm and use those studs with some mods since it needs cut .5" anyway. Then bore the head hole out a little and the cylinder holes out a little and then you are in business. The studs are not that different really.

The hard part in the states is getting T5 bearings :(

... FWIW you all can count on a yard sale of all my T4 stuff if this works out. Give me a month :)

[Pillow]

Here is the best info on the net that I have found so far:

http://www.gearheads.dk/oxyboxer.htm

[bren]

im not actually planning an oxyboxer like that, but i will be using a counterweighted 76.4mm WBX crank and rods, but inside a type1 case! reasons being, machining is less complicated, and an oil cooler can be used inside the shroud. i also have a lot of type1 parts that i can still use on this engine when its built which i would have to sell on if i used the T25 case.

im already using part of the engine i raided though... the ignition! WBX ignition on a type1 motor is great!! the whole dissy, coil, module and loom just swaps straight over!

[Pillow]

Bren sounds good. Be careful on the rods though as they have 24mm pins and not the 22mm pins like standard VW T1s.

This is probably a long term project for me, unless it is too easy to pass up... But we will see. Having a DMS 78.4 T1 stroker sitting on the shelf is really making me waffle on which way is easier and cheap. As I already paid for the T1 crank.

Yah the Vangon ignition is a good thing to swap over if you can find it.

Take Care,

[Pillow]

Just got some machining info and this conversion is amazingly thrifty if you plan on a basic build... In any build there are constant costs which really do not change no matter how big or small the engine is.

So getting the 94Bs machined for the T5 case is $150.

Case savers to go 10mm in the case to 8mm studs. $30-50 worst case.

... Evertyhing else is a constant! :)

The most difficult part will be getting the 2.1 mains from Europe... Might have to call in a favor from one of our European buddies or suppliers here :) ... Or if the bearings are perfect reuse them, slim chance but possible.

So essentially for less than the cost of a custom counterweighted T1 crank you can be rolling in a T5 conversion!

More to come....

[Pillow]

Also consider the lack of machining costs to the T1 case when going bigger. Cut case bores for cylinders, clearance, tap for full-flow, maybe allign bore... blah blah blah

The T5 case in contrast is ready to go as is. Just cut the water jackets off.

[Jim Andritsakos]

Hello Adrian!

If you want wbx parts (bearings etc) is no problem to send you some.I have a lot available for 1.9 & 2.1

Rgds,

[zen]

so between you and vujade, i will be set on T4 parts right? :)

[Pillow]

Thanks Jim! That is excellent news! You do not realise how big the smile on my face is rigth now :D I was very worried about this issue. (A USA VW problem I think)


Zen, Yup. Pretty soon as long as I see this T5 thing working all my T4 stuff is up for grabs. Probably just post it in the FS area in a month or so. Granted I do not think I have that much great stuff hiding in my basement laboratory. Most of the treasure is just a huge pile of good T4 German tinware... Stock piling for Cali conversions.

Again I will keep you all posted on how this is working out as I progress. Maybe post some pics as well.

[jhelgesen]

I like what I'm seeing. What kind of HP do you think you can get from the 2.1?

[Pillow]

As for power I am going for around 100. Which is essentially stock.

I know lame, but it is for a '66 Bus and I am focusing on the CIS fuel injection and hydro lifters with stock cam. So I do not see much power added at all. I need the displacement for torque over big HP.

Now if this were going into a Beetle... I bet we could see 150+HP pretty easy, but the price goes up. 4" Autocraft P&Cs with custom drilled street elliminator heads. 84 crank welded and C/W WBX crank, chevy rods journals... The front wheels may never touch the ground again :) Easy displacement, but gets expensive fast. I imagine I will just build a mild 2.1 for the Beetle in the future anyway, granted lumpy cam and great heads still around 140-160HP.

... I would be very affraid of anything over 160-170 in a Beetle anyway... Almost undriveable because of the brutal power to weight issue. A lot of people want huge HP, but to me it is overkill. Granted 125-150 is about right.

[Type 5 Joe]

Hi I'm Type 5 Joe (joe of centorg on the STF)

Pillow contacted me and told me I should be on here, so here I am!

These Type 5's truly do give you your best bang for the buck!

I think Pillow will decide to re-locate the 8mm studs, we'll see....

You can stuff alot more stroke in one of these than a Type IV, for way less $$$

I do custom ACVW machine work on Type I and Type 5's (Oxyboxers)

If your interested in this conversion you can E-mail me at (use underscores for the spaces):

accu_tech_inc@yahoo.com

I charge $500.00 + shipping to Jet-spray clean the case, Mill the water jackets off , re-locate the 8mm studs, drill and tap all oil passages (includes brass pipe-plugs).

Modify new Set of 94's $150.00

Sleeve lifter bores to Type I size W/ 7075 Aluminum slugs $150.00

Six case hardened Bullet nosed Shuffle Pins $100.00

Cylinder head work too.

[Alex]

Hi Joe,

welcome to the site.
I just sent you an email concerning the rules of our site.

Alex

[Pillow]

Glad to have you here Joe! Your input will be greatly appreciated.

Especially since you are the only T5 machine guy in the states that I know of. I still encourage you to start a vendor forum to get the word out on this new option for air-cooling. I am sure you can work with Alex on this.

Take Care,

[Jim Andritsakos]

Welcome Joe!

Joe is one of the very few people in U.S. who is involved in the wasser/oxy boxer engines.He is knowing what he is doing at all...
Excellent machine work!

Rgds,

[Type 5 Joe]

Thanks guys,

I'll be checking in frequently now.

I'm thinking about doing the Type 5/ Wasserboxer Forum, Banner ads, and all.

I tried to get interest generated on the STF, it looks like these folks are a little more open minded...

If there is enough interest, I'll probably go for it.

Thanks again for your support.

- Joe

[Pillow]

I am interested, of course.

I think most people have never heard of a T5 as an option. In reality I see it as cheaper than a big T1 or T4. A little machining and then use mostly all T1 stuff.

Go for it! :)

[type2guy]

Thanks for getting me in trouble again Pillow! Now I'm seeing the T5 as ANOTHER engine option!

All this is very interesting for sure.

Exactly what vehicles and years had this engine? If it's the watercooled vanagons, I think I can score an engine right off the bat for nothing!

[Pillow]

Glad to see you here Type2guy ;)

The years for the Vanagon WBX I think are from '84-'92ish. Any of the motors will work for the case. But some differences exist.

The 1.9 (84-85?) is prefered for the case because the #1 main is like a T4 bearing. The later 2.1 uses a weird three piece bearing that really needs sourced from Europe, and the set costs like $100 for just the bearing set.

Also the 1.9 uses a 69mm crank and the 2.1 a 76.4mm.

It looks like I am going to pick up a 1.9 short block for free as well. But this will be the basis for a large motor for a Beetle. Figure that I will have the 1.9 crank welded up by DMS to like a 82 or 84 and then put in some monster P&Cs. Hopefully with Chevy pistons (cheap) and super custom cylinders. Actually birals if I can pull it off, but home made.... Lots of questions here and very tenative, so if it does not work out no one can hold me to it :) Then custom drilled badboy heads for the WBX pattern (Joe is working on this part)... I have not even guessed how big it will be, and I am almost afraid how much HP it would produce... But fun!

... I better get bigger rear wheels and wide fiberglass fenders! And a roll cage.

[VWMorten]

Please look at this thread on the shoptalkforums regarding questions and ideas about the Oxyboxer..
http://shoptalkforums.com/bbs/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/001001.html
Ther is even info on how much it is possible for dms to stroke the 2.1 crankshaft..

I have a oxyboxerconverted case with all needed wbx hardware for sale, if anybody is interested..

http://www.gearheads.dk/boxyb00.jpg
http://www.gearheads.dk/boxyb01.jpg
http://www.gearheads.dk/boxyb02.jpg
http://www.gearheads.dk/boxyb03.jpg

[Pillow]

Things went well cutting the water jacket off one side of the case. Pretty straight forward and took tops two hours. I will do the other side later when I get a chance.

Like a dummy I cut a gash in my right hand on a sharp frag of aluminum. Ouch! So that will slow me down for at least a week. I hate that!

I have some pictures if anyone wants to post them somewhere?

So far so good.

The crank and case are perfect no allign bore or polishing is needed at all!

[Pillow]

Here is a USA person who claims to have the needed WBX bearings, and does custom stuff if you need a T1 crank in a WBX case.

>email rjebay@hscis.net Thanks Rocky<

He can do most anything to get a crank in a WBX check it out.

[zen]

Originally posted by Pillow
Like a dummy I cut a gash in my right hand on a sharp frag of aluminum. Ouch! So that will slow me down for at least a week. I hate that!

I have some pictures if anyone wants to post them somewhere?



of your hand or the case? :D

[Pillow]

Just the case... I kept the blood away from the camera :)

[Tim]

I had never heard of T5, very interesting. It seems to be a good alternative to T4. How much heavier is a T5 (converted to aircooled) than a T1?

Tim

[VWMorten]

new pics above..!

[Jim Andritsakos]

Morten, did you get my e-mail ???

[Farmer]

I know this is most likely not possible for you guys in the US. but in Sweden there was a couple of guys working with the stock 2,1 WBX, still watercooled.
They intalled another Solid cam, did some head work and modified the stock F.I. - They got a tad over 140 hp and some serius torque. This was with 10-1 CR (MJ) engine.

But the stock engine pays reasonably good for 1 - 1,25 ratio rockers. (Also the 1,9) Bottom end is normally the same. Extra power starts to come in about 2800 - 3000 rpm. Expect about + 5% and better upper end torque compared to stock.

[Pillow]

Hey Tim,

As for weight, 15-20 pounds. Basically the only weight difference is between the AL case versus magnesium. I would think the new T1 AL case weighs about the same as a Oxy-boxer case.

Still really in a bind for the relocated head stud issue... Any thoughts?

[chigger]

What I would like to know is weither or not the T5 crank will fit in a T4 engine? It would be a cheap stroker crank. Also if the 76mm crank uses a weird bering could it be modified to use a stock T4 bering in that location? Did the T5 come with a manual transmission? Might be a good trans if you are running a T4. Or maybe the pressure plate and flywheel are a drop in? My VW guru says the engines die at 66,000 miles. He was very specific about it apparently he does alot of warranty work. Anyway it makes the buses quite cheap. The original heads had the same problem as the T4 in a bus heads. They overheat. In the T5 the heads crack while in the T4 they drop valve seats. The heads have great looking ports a straight shot in. The valves are hugh and the chamber looks like a modified hemi chamber. The pistons however look like a set of diesel pistons with a large squish area and a deep hollow, probably to decrease compression. Overall it kinda looks like everything VW should have done to the T1 and didn't. Quite impressive.

[Jim Andritsakos]

Overheating is common in poorly serviced vehicles.
My 1990 pick-up T-25 2.1 DJ WBX 160.000 km an still no rebuild...

[Type 5 Joe]

The Wasser crank will not fit in the TypeIV, there is no way possible...

The Wassers did have some head sealing problems, due to people running conventional coolants, and this erroding the sealing surface.

You must run the factory "blue" coolant from V.W.

A properly built and maintained Wasser will outlive a Type IV 2 to one....

The piston were designed to promote "swirl" and to keep the combustion in the piston, to transfer the heat energy to the coolant system.

Now we're starting to see piston designs like the Super Squishy from ACNet that are "revolutionary in design" Hmmm, I wonder who had this Idea first.

The V.W. engineers where not dumb when they designed this motor, and alot of problems in past designs where changed in this model.

For more info on this subject, and lots of disscusion on the Type 5 option, visit:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/bbs/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Wasserboxer/Oxyboxer+Type+V+Forum&number=37&DaysPrune=&LastLogin=

- Joe

[Type 5 Joe]

Bump!

He He

- Joe

[Wally]

Hi Joe,
I just looked at prices for complete or core 2,1 DJ engines here and they are very, very expensive. Since you then have to do the machine work and buy a rather expensive piston/cylinder set if you want anything more than 94 mm bore, I experienced the venture more expensive then a type 4 in general. I reckon all the accesories (induction, cooling, exhaust) cost about the same if you want quality. Maybe the cores are more readily available and thus cheaper to get in the usa...
Make no mistake, I like the wbx/oxyboxer idea very much: Gerd Weiser in germany has build one, which has been tested in VW Speed magazine (great aticle) and one drove in the type 1 class in the kaefer cup with great succes, but cheaper or better than type 4, not so in my opinion.
I like the engine in original form even that much, that i think of putting one in a Type 3 squareback. Imaging: 112 hp with original injection, so its low for fitting under the hood of the type 3 and has great heating possibilities, when made fit... I'am still a bit worried of the cracks between the cylinder heads that they all seem to have and live happily with...,still...
Like your work with the obx engines though; its much, much better than T1, that's for sure.
Greetings,
Walter

[Alex]

I talked to Gerd Weiser when I went back to Germany in 98. I asked about the OBX.
He told me that it was not cheap. Maybe it is cheaper now.

Alex

[Martice]

Whats not cheap? the conversion, the aftermarket parts or the "mother" engine?

They are not so expensive here.When we can find them that is :)

I am thinking about this converson myself. Keep the info comming!!!

Martin

[Pillow]

The "MV" 2.1 short block cost me $55 USD. There are many 1.9 engines I just do not even want to bother with. Local VW junkyard has a 2.1 longblock for $200, good to go.

Do not pay a premium for these motor cores.

Normally the cases and cranks do not even need bored or polished. As the heads blow before the bottom end is tired.

In my situation the T5 OXY should cost less than a comperable T1 2110 stroker. Much less.

Also consider that you might be able to sell some of the WBX parts that are useless and come out even.

[krems]

i may seem like an idiot, or just a real newbie, for asking this, but can someone give me a complete step by step checklist for converting a stock wbx engine into an obx and putting it into a bug?

1. find good wbx engine
2. tear down and cut water jackets off ....?
3.

[oasis]

Although this thread is three years old (sans the last reply), I have read it just now for the first time.

Ironically enough, I was going through my stacks of old magazines to weed out the issues I no longer wanted taking up space. There was one issue of VW Trends or Hot VWs that had an article on this very subject. I'm pretty sure I kept it.

Is there any way I can scan or quote this article and stay within ethical and legal guidelines?