Cutting the decklid? (Porsche fan)

[craigt-from-atl]

I've noticed a lot of the 'late' beetle owners cutting their decklids so that the Porsche fan setup will fit. Is this a requirement, or can something be modifed to eliminate the cut?

I'm planning on putting a RAT 2270 engine in an early '60s Beetle. I'd rather not cut the lid. (especially since it wouldn't be as hidden as in a late model)

Thanks.

[dgluyas]

Craig, I have not had to do any cutting in my 1964 type 1 . It depends on if its a type 4 and whos conversion you are using. I am using a Sharpbuilt kit from Australia and the only thing I have done is drill some holes behind the number ploate to let some more air in ,and you cant see these holes. You just mount the plate on some rubber standoffs.
Cheers David

[kdanie]

If you use the Fat Performance 911 shroud cutting is required. The Fat shroud was developed for offroad competition so clearance was not an issue. No case machining is required either. It is the least expensive of the 911 shrouds. If you use one of the other shrouds cutting is not required because they were designed for the type 1 from the start and case machining is required.
ken

[craigt-from-atl]

Ok, so with the Sharpbuilt 911 kit, I shouldn't have to do much other than drill some holes for improved cooling behind the license plate.

Jake does recommend this kit on his webpage, so that is probably what I'll go with. If machining of the case is necessary, I'll leave that to him! :)

Thanks for the clarification guys!

EDIT: Yeah, this is for a type IV conversion

[zen]

craig, jake does both. looks like i will be going back to using a FAT as jake is reporting a delay in the Sharpbuilt shrouds right now. i already have a FAT as i was planning on using a runner (like Sandeep) has done, but ran into some money and was able to go with a RAT sooner rather than later.

so jake will do either. the FAT is easier on him, but tougher on the car owner due to the decklid issue. i have some possible decklid designs i have been playing with just to do something "different". they are below. not sure how much any of them will cost at this point. let me get some votes so i know opinions for the hell of it.

the main difference is that FAT has the fan sit on top of the breather chimney and all others machine the chimney down to get the engine "shorter" to fit under the lid.

http://www.theartofzen.com/motorsports/decklid1.jpg
http://www.theartofzen.com/motorsports/decklid2.jpg

[Alex]

Nice design.

I think I might have the same problem with my decklid....only that I will not cut it. I might change my Porsche fan. Having the old long decklid makes it even harder to fit the Porsche fan without cutting the decklid.

BTW....I believe the was already a rear decklid that had a scoop like that many years ago.

Alex

[Carbon Joe]

Alex do you mean one like this? If so I've been think about making a mold off this one and making them in carbon. But I like the way Zen's #4 lid looks.

[Alex]

That is it.

My friend had in on his beetle in Germany 89 when I joind the aircooled mania.

Alex

[Massive Type IV]

After my findings this week (watch for them on my forum and the STF) I dislike the 911 shroud even more!

I can do the 911 either way. The FAT shroud is fine, and is less work for me, for sure. The Sharpebuilt is a better looking kit, but adds a solid day to the build time of the engine.

Craig, you should have came up to see me this week, I dynoed 7 engines since last Saturday, its all I have done all week. Of those only one had a 911 fan, it ran HOTTER than the rest!!!! No lie!

[zen]

Originally posted by Carbon Joe
Alex do you mean one like this? If so I've been think about making a mold off this one and making them in carbon. But I like the way Zen's #4 lid looks.

let's talk joe. if you think this is something you will be doing soon i may be interested. the one thing i have not figured out in my tiny little head is how to deal with diverting rain and such from the intake. thoughts?

[craigt-from-atl]

Originally posted by Massive Type IV
After my findings this week (watch for them on my forum and the STF) I dislike the 911 shroud even more!

...

Craig, you should have came up to see me this week, I dynoed 7 engines since last Saturday, its all I have done all week. Of those only one had a 911 fan, it ran HOTTER than the rest!!!! No lie!

Yeah, I just figured that as long as I'm spending all that loot, I would want to see something really cool in the back. :) But hey, if I'm spending all that loot, I want it to run good also. . .

I wish I could have been up there. I drove up to West Va a couple of weeks ago for some snowboarding, and paid special attention to where Cleveland is! ;) Budget plans are in the works!

[Massive Type IV]

Cool.......Let me know when you get the figures ironed out!

[zen]

so what is the impact of design #4 on air in the engine bay. does the scoop work against the low pressure zone that the fresh air grills create to suck in air? does it matter as the 911 fan will probably pull any air it needs? keep one thing in mind that the scoop will probably not be a straight through. it will probably have a rain tray and some type of diverter to avoid the pit falls of standoffs.

any other thoughts.

[Carbon Joe]

If you run a roof spoiler you won't have that low pressure zone. If not, the fan and carbs will pull what it needs. I don't think it will create a ram air effect, just a larger area for air to enter the engine bay (kind of like stand off's). I think with the right shape using a grill with a rain tray would look great. With the grill and tray removable for when you want to show off what's under the decklid.

[Sandeep]

I like design #4 the best. Its subtle and the lines look nice. Would you do away with the grills on the stock lid and just have some sort of grill in the fan area ? Or would the carbs benefit from the stock grills ?

Would fibreglass be an option ?

This will definately make the Fat 911 kit more of an option for people.

Sandeep

[zen]

Originally posted by Sandeep
Would you do away with the grills on the stock lid and just have some sort of grill in the fan area ?

No grills on the lid, just above. Really nothing else is needed from what i have seen (considering no one running a Sharpbuilt pulls in extra air from anywhere), but since the decklid has to be bumped out a scoop only made sense. it will bring in extra air, but have a rain tray to keep water and dirt from entering the compartment.

This will definately make the Fat 911 kit more of an option for people.

That hasn't gone unnoticed. :D Also makes potential future fan shrouds from other manufacturers that don't require case machining more of a possibility and viable option.

sandeep, could you measure how much the fan sticks out of your decklid on a horizontal and vertical axis? this will let us know how far out the scoop has to be in that area. thanks!!!

[vujade]

Zen

do you think scoop number 4 will interfere with opening the decklid properly?

[zen]

if it sits up as high as i have drawn it then yes, it will. i am sure it will have to be moved down just a touch to allow for that. good catch. as i don't have my car to take a look at that, maybe you or carbon joe or someone can give some feedback there. i am having to go off of memory.

how low would the scoop have to be to not interfere? and does (or how much does) the height of the scoop play into that? i want to play with a couple of thoughts on how the top of the scoop will look. one thought is...could you trail the outside lip of the scoop towards the top tapering to flat as it reaches the top? also thinking of the scoop standing off of the decklid some as if it was raised. i will draw some pics tonight to clarify this.

[Carbon Joe]

Zen,
I did a quick measure with the decklid open, the scoop could only be 1 and 1/4 inches tall at the center of the decklid. Now I think that's fine with the scoop being about as wide as the stock grills (30 inches) This would make a nice wide scoop that would fallow the lines of the decklid down to a nice taper. The top of the scoop will still have to be about 1 and 1/2 inches down from the top of the lid to work. I took a bunch of pics with a small paper template to show you how much clearance we have to work with, I'll send them to you.

[zen]

like to see what you have joe. i will work on some drawings here in a minute. check this post (http://www.germanlook.com/Forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=518&perpage=15&pagenumber=9) for an idea of of how much the fan will stand up out of the normal decklid surface and where that occurs on the lid (roughly just above the standard mounting location of the license plate light. sandeep's measurements will help to detail.

[zen]

here are some more ideas on the scoop based on design #4...
http://www.theartofzen.com/motorsports/decklid2+.jpg

[Carbon Joe]

Go wider, go as wide as the stock grills at the top and fallow the line down the sides. I like way #4d looks but wider.

[vujade]

I think Joe has something here, Zen go wider!

It should look pretty good :D

[zen]

i will draw up something wider today so i can see it visually. i lean towards the thinner scoop from a looks only stand point. if going wider, any impact to rain tray/diverter?

also, what are your thoughts on the scoops edges? do they roll inside or how would they be finished?

also, one thought to have in mind to cover at least my needs, i need to be able to mount a license plate on the lids as well. no light housing, but a plate and frame with integrated light.

[vujade]

Zen

I dont see why the scoop would effect the liscense plate that much.

[Carbon Joe]

With a wide scoop it would have more of a stock appearance to it, keeping the same shape in the area of the license plate guard. The edges should have a nice small roll to them.

[Sandeep]

Guys,

I will take a measurement for you tonight on how much the fan protrudes from the decklid, but from memory, its less than 3/4"

Too much playoff hockey on last night !

Sandeep

[zen]

Originally posted by Sandeep
Too much playoff hockey on last night !

Sandeep

don't i know it. it is bad enough i had to watch my wings starting at 10:30pm my time, but they had to lose yet AGAIN. damn they kill me. year after year it is a roller coaster within each series. i guess i know the result from here. guess it is time to start rooting for those damn canadians. :D go sens!!!!!

[Sandeep]

Ok,

Took the measurement. The fan sits just under 3/4" above the contour of the stock decklid. I hope you can see from the pics in the Fat Shroud thread, where the cut has to be made.

Sandeep

[zen]

thanks for the info sandeep. joe, will the scoop clear that? don't remember if we talked height already.

the more i think of it, the more comfortable i am with the wider scoop. i like the fact that it looks a little more stock (not that much of anything on my car will anyway) and think it will have a broader appeal.

have any ideas yet on the rain tray?

[Carbon Joe]

Thanks Sandeep, I figured about 1 1/2 inches of clearance in the area of the fan. Now I have to start pulling molds off the decklid I have, I need to make three molds off of it. The first will be the doubler on the inside where the hinges attach. Then a stock lid mold after that I'll start on the lid with scoop. I should have my first two molds done in about a week, I'll keep you posted and I'll take allot of pics.

[zen]

that would be fantastic joe. would love to see the pics. if you are up for it, i would think it cool to include some of that on your site to show how the process happens (without giving any trade secrets away). i'm pretty excited about this.

[zen]

any update/pics you can share on the decklid joe?

[Carbon Joe]

I'm just about finished with the mold for the doubler and I've stated on the mold for the stock decklid. I'm hoping to make my first C/F decklid in the next few weeks. I also found a good source for stock hinges at a good price.

[vujade]

Joe, you know there is a guy on STF that has a gas strut kit for VW decklids I bet they would be a nice upgrade for these CF decklids.

[Carbon Joe]

I saw those, they would look sweet. I've just about got the mold done for the stock decklid and I've started to shape the scoop on the master for my next mold. Everything's looking good, I'll be making my first carbon fiber decklid by the end of this week.

[vujade]

very cool!!!

I cant wait to see them :D

[Wally]

Joe,
Very interesting! I just read up on this thread.
What does a stock decklid weigh? and a carbonfiber decklid? In other words: what would the weigth advantage be?

Does the stock decklid have the 4 venting perforations like the late original?
What would a price be? + shipping costs to the Netherlands (Europe) ?

Thanks,
Walter

[zen]

very cool joe. i've very excited about this. i can't wait. i am going to see jake this weekend to drop off some more parts. he is making really good progress on the engine.

[Carbon Joe]

Walter,
The stock lid weighs almost 11 pounds (4.90 Kilograms) a C/F lid should weigh about 3 pounds (1.36 Kilograms), I'm guessing I haven't made my first one yet. But I will be making two different versions of the lid, first being a stock lid with hinges and a hole for the latch. Second will be a super light lid, I hope to make it about 1 pound (453 grams) this will be for the racers, it will be held in place with pins. As for the cost, I'm not sure yet, I'm hopping to keep it below $300.00 for the stock and $150.00 for the super light. Shipping to the Netherlands will be tuff, but I'll look into it.
Thanks,

[Wally]

Thanks Joe.
The weight saving is impressive!
Walter