Porsche shrouds for Type 4's

[Sandeep]

Howdy,

As you may be able to tell from all of the type 4 posts I'm posting, I'm almost ready to aquire the used engine I have been looking for.

Its a 914 2.0L that is in running condition. I've also secured a NEW type 4 case (Thanks Alex !) that I will most likely use for a 2270cc upgrade. Now the questions !!

Can I use a Porsche shroud on the stock 914 2.0 ? I really like the look of the shroud and fan and I can't afford both the DTM and the Porsche shroud. The goal is to use the porsche shroud on the 2.0 for about 2 years until I collect the parts for the 2270. I then want to use the porsche shroud on the new case for the 2270.

What sizes to the fans come in ? I've heard of 5, 11 and 12 blade fans....can I use the 5 blade fan with the porsche shroud so I don't overcool the engine ?

I really like the fit of the shroud from PTP in the engine gallery ( Black shroud, polished fan). Oliver, what size of fan do I need for that setup of yours. What machining of the case needs to be done to fit that setup ?

Has anyone ever used this shroud ? http://store.cip1.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=cali&Product_Code=ACC-C10-5991&Category_Code=02-06-01-02

I'm really hungry for information so any info that anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Sandeep

[kdanie]

I have the CIP shroud. The shroud is ok, the rest of the parts are not very high quality. The instructions SUCK!! If you are not really mechanicaly inclined and can sort things out, you should go with a better kit like CSP/BAS or Sharpbuilt. The 5 and 11 blade fans interchange but I am pretty sure the 12 blade fan (the cool fan with the swept blades) is larger in diameter. The machine work on the case is the hard part to get done right. CIP is of little help with problems, you get what you pay for. I know 4speed on the STF eurolook forum has used the CIP shroud on 2 engines with success. I have an 11 blade fan for my 2.0L, I set my compression at 10-1 and I have a Fat Performace pulley that is the same size as the Alt. pulley (1-1) so I hope it doesn't over cool in the winter. I have used reduction pulleys on water cooled engines before, they can cause charging problems, usually at night when idleing (lights on).
ken

[Sandeep]

I really like the looks of the porsche fan so I want to go with that setup. I want this shroud to carry over to my future type 4...I will eventually turn this car into a GT4 Class racer (2 to 3 years).

Sandeep

[NYBugman1972]

Well, there goes the neighborhood... Jake's here ;)

Now we'll have some awesome input. Nice to see you here!

And why the hell is my post coming in BEFORE Jake's? :confused:

[Massive Type IV]

Buy a DTM, it'll keep the engine just as cool, and is cheaper/easier to work with...

[Oliver Knuf]

If so, the easiest to handle with, is the original Type 1 conversion, build by Eurorace, copied by Custom & Speed Parts, works as fine, is supercheap, easy to handle, but it looks as ugly (sorry, it's just my opinion) as all the other conversions, that are working with Type 1 fans. Porsche fans do look way nicer and there are more than a few tests done with the airflow of Porsche fans, even the standard unit with 11 blades, flows in 260mm diameter more than triple the air of a 1,6l Type 1 fan, there comes another question to my mind. Could it be, that a Porsche fan can freeze the cylinders?

[Massive Type IV]

TIV engines have 23% more cooling fins, that means a fan producing 23% less efficiency can still keep the engine plenty cool and does NOT back all the HP up in the shroud.

I 'm almost finished with dyno testing 10 engines with 3 cooling systems each, when I'm finished and provide the researcher with his information I will post some of the findings.....

I'll put it to you this way, every engine had atleast 9:1 , after this I doubt you will be seeing a single 911 shrouded engine leave my shop, it's just not needed, even at 11.5:1 and pump gas!

[Alex]

A while ago you posted on the STF that you dynoed an engine with a Porsche fan shroud with and without the belt and you said that the HP loss was not as big as everybody was saying.

http://shoptalkforums.com/bbs/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/001999.html

I wonder how much HP the DTM uses.

Alex

[Massive Type IV]

It is dependant upon which shroud is used, and even the year of Porsche alternator/fan and their drive ratios.

The DTM pulls 8-11HP almost consistantly.

I'm doing product testing for a new shroud manufactirer (not even been talked about in public yet) so the work is very accurate

[Sandeep]

Cool,

I will wait to make a decision on the shroud until more details are available.

Sandeep

[Massive Type IV]

ZThese shrouds are not going to be sold to the public, they are under contract for only one application........Sorry,

[vujade]

Jake

How much longer will you be selling the Porsche shrouded motors? I will finally have no car payments by the end of this year, so that $400+ per month can now be put away (in the bank) towards one of your motors. I was hoping to get one in about a year from now (less time hopefully if I have a good year).

[Massive Type IV]

I have orders for 3 shrouds from my maker now, when those are gone I probably won't be doing any more with the 911 fan. we should get started if you want one of these engines.

[vujade]

Jake, whats the reason for discontinuing use of the Porsche shroud?

Is it the overcooling problem?
Does this happen on the D version of the 2270?

thanks

Joe

[Massive Type IV]

Basically, they are un needed. I cooled a 2270 D version last week with a DTM.

I get tired of all the hassles with finding fan assemblies that are worth using, since the only kits I believe in use the Genuine Porsche assembly.

It adds 1 solid day onto the engine build time, to gain nothing but looks, which should not even bhe considered when building an engine...

What it does is
Cost alot
pulls power from the engine
cost me time
CAN overcool
takes the simplicity away fro m the engine

All that for a look, engines arenot for looks, go look at a Ferrari engine, you will be surprised at how bland they look, engines that do their job make up for the look with their performance.

[vujade]

I understand where you are coming from Jake. Performance should be more important then the looks & im sure that the money spent on the Porsche shroud could be spent adding the extras on the motor (like 8 hours of dyno tuning, mallory distributor, & blueprinting the engine).

Oh well, Ill just have to dream! :) (About the Porsche Shroud that is) :broken:

[Alex]

The DTM is how much....500$? What is included?
You get a Porsche shroud for 800$ with generator and blade.
Do you need Porsche parts????NO! To say that the only good fan is the one that uses Porsche parts is wrong. That is why it gets expensive too.

There are kits available that uses a Golf generator which does the job and lowers the cost. Yes...it might be more expensive I also think that most people do care how their engine looks like.
If you spend 10000$ on an engine it better looks good otherwise why would I want to make my car look good and go to shows?
I know that there is still the maching part of the case.

Porsche only used those fans until they used watercooled engines so they cooled 2.0,2.2 and 2.4 ranging from what???? 130-180HP? They were not successful in cooling (overcooling)those?
Maybe it is different because it is a 6 cylinder but I think it is wrong to say they are not needed. It depends on your application. I get the impression that if I get some normal T4 heads with my Nickies and a proper setup enigne I could get away with 2 electric fans on my motor.

The DTM takes HP too. You reported a loss of 8hp and the DTM from 8-11hp. So it is wrong to say the Porsche shroud take HP away and make it sound terrible. Now you could say that you get a bigger loss with other ratios but then I also believe that you either suck more air in.....more cooling...or suck less air in which is less cooling. Am I correct?

We can start this argument all over again.......about all parts like 102 vs 103 2500$ vs 500$ or DTM vs Porsche shrouds or vanagon heads vs normal heads vs poor cooling big Remmele heads.

This is going nowhere. This is just going to start an :arguing: arguementation which will lead into a fight.

Warning:
I do appreciate Jake's input and advice but if you want to talk to him about business please do so via Private Message or Email.
This right is reserved fo those that actually pay a fee to Germanlook.com so we can return something to our members.
You can identify those by the custom title they have.
Otherwise why would anyone pay us money so that we can pay our bill, get stickers and eventually have shirts and more contests.
That does not mean that people can not recommend his service or write an article but it means that the posts can only be to obtain inforamtion and advice.

Alex

[Massive Type IV]

Thanks Alex,

Since my opinion is not welcome here, and I won't be paying any money, I will be leaving...

Do what you want, spend your money the way you want, just don't ask me any questions!

[Alex]

I had the same talk to John Connolly about this. It is clearly stated in the rules. If you want to talk business there is PM or email available. This has nothing to do that you are Jake Raby. It is the same for everyone.
I do appreciate you information and advice....but to say that the 911 shroud is bad because it takes HP is wrong after you did the test yourself and the DTM takes the same or even slightly more.
There are so many Porsche shrouds configurations available as well. That has nothing to do with the DTM being better or not.......it is a great product but I do not like the looks of it and looks is important to many of us.

Alex

[Rouser]

In what would seem like a fraction of "Internet Time", I saw Alex do in THIS forum (might as well change it to AlexLook Forums (http://www.germanlook.com)) what he periodically has done at ShopTalk Forums (http://shoptalkforums.com/), hammer a well-known (and EXPERIENCED) engine builder because he SUCCESSFULLY bucked current T-IV trends; you're getting a rep, Alex.

If ANY EXPERIENCED engine builder recommends any viable/dyno-tested alternative/solution (i.e. functional/easier DTM shroud vs. eyecandy/$$$ 911 shroud) around here that doesn't meet the Alex Litmus Test, you're QUICKLY vilified as a "business opportunist" and given a through tongue-lashing (don't think you're "disclaimer" after your last post to Jake Raby/Massive Type IV (http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm) wasn't intended as just that). THOSE opinions not honored here, thank you very much ...

Of course, Alex's T-IV leanings have always been more warm to "German Way Best." Forget us good ol' American Engine-nuity; heck, what do we know. And to think, I believed this forum was shaping up as a decent replacement for callookforums; I know, stupid me.

Bye.

[Sandeep]

I have orders for 3 shrouds from my maker now, when those are gone I probably won't be doing any more with the 911 fan. we should get started if you want one of these engines.

Lets make one thing CLEAR here. The forums are not for advertising business opportunities.

IF you want someone's business, you can use email or Private Messages......simple rules to follow if you HAVE NOT paid for advertising.

This is not fair to shop owners who have paid good money to advertise here.

Ingnorance of the forum rules is not a defense.....as they have been stated CLEARLY.

Sandeep

[Massive Type IV]

I think the main problem is that I'm not German....who gives a damn about that anyway? Obviously Alex does.

I did not come here to advertise, and I have not come here to make people happy, and spoil them with promises of polished aluminum and carbon fiber.(thats what everyone wants, a false sense of correctness)

I'm here to spread the word that looks don't count, and aftermarket stuff is not what is is made up to be. I spent thousands of dollars to be able to prove people, and the general public wrong with their theories and general misconceptions concerning these engines.

Alex, if you doubt what I say, buy a plane ticket, and come watch me dyno the two shrouds in question on my dyno, this is an invitation, as I know the truth. I'm confident in my findings, confident in my knowledge, moreover I know the truth.

I don't advertise, never have and never will till I start to starve to death, which may be tomorrow, but I refuse to be puked on because I don't give money to an organization that could benefit from my support. I have supported the German look trend to this point, as I like new things.

I make my own rules, and won't be following yours. Since this is YOUR foeum I will be leaving.

[zen]

obviously some history here. that or there was a hell of a lot more read into that message then i read.

i don't know the rules and i am also not in the position to have to care. BUT, i for one welcome varied opinions. so Jake prefers performance over looks. that is what is important to him and he lays it out for everyone to know. no hidden agenda there. i don't necessarily agree with him, but i know where he stands and i can you my own adult intellect to make my own decisions.

funny how quickly some can dismiss people who have differing opinions. he says he has facts to backup his finding and from what i have seen, he posts many of them on his site. again, i can look at those facts and decide the the looks are important enough for me that i want to go with a 911 shroud anyway. or whatever.

i want information and opinions. not one sided ones from hobbyists only (and that is not pointing any fingers at anyone since i don't really know anyone here). let's assume that everyone on here is capable of analytical deduction and come to our own decisions on people's opinions and statements, not censor them because we don't like them or agree with them.

[Alex]

Jake,

I would like that. I even offer to bring my engine with me and we can put that on the dyno too when it is done. My engine will not be ready for another year though. I am serious......I will come if you let me.

Vujade was asking the right questions and you were giving the right answers about future business.
I simply stated a warning and told you guys to use either PMs or email. A default PM is send now to every new member and I even sent an extra PM about this.
It has nothing to do with me being German and you American. If I feel that things are done better here I buy them or get the work done here. As you know I asked you to build my engine over half a year ago. I do not doubt what you say but after talking to Sandeep about shrouds I remembered your post about the little power loss and I recommended you to Sandeep for his engine and I believe he emailed you on this subject.
Yes, I do question things when there is some confusing information out there and I will continue to do that.
Just because I mentioned that some heads are being developed does not mean that I do not look at the US market. I follow it very closely what it has to offer and buy things from there too like the LN Engineering Nickies set.

I do believe that some people benefited and will benefit from the information I provided to the community which btw were slashed when I posted them on the Type 4rum and now it seems that they are great after testing. There are many examples for that too, Rouser.

My warning was about the "we should get started if you want one of these engines." post.

I do feel responsible about those who pay us. I have a very American advertiser on this site which I will protect and his products are awesome and I am very happy that Carbon Joe is with us on this site. This is done on many forums......Go to the CLF.....same story there btw. Dave Conklin just did a post on this. Advertisers help to pay the bills and also provide funding for stickers, shirts and prices for contests. If you do not see that then I am very sorry.
Or shall we have every member donate money? That would be like www.callook.org which does not exists anymore because of the lack of funding.
To give you another example......I had the same conversation with John Connolly. Unfortunately this site will lose a great opportunity for the members if we can not agree on some terms.
It is sad but I have no problems with it and I respect John's position....which ever that might be. He has very valid points.


If this site would only be for Germans it would most likely be in German. What Sandeep and I try to do is the same that James intended it to be. Share information, have tech articles and show you what is available. What you do with that information is up to you. If you want to discuss that with Jake.....well no problem at all. I even help you to get the stuff you need.

My remarks about the shroud are valid I believe and I am not going to repeat them. Read this thread and the other information is on the STF. You just have to read it. I do criticize and question things but I can take it too. Oliver and Eddy know that too. I do not stop at the German border.

Sorry for the spelling mistakes.
I am very sad for every person that leaves this site and I am sorry for that. For those who want their accounts deleted let me know.

Alex

[zen]

i'm pretty convinced that my german half is where i get my opinionated hard-headedness. LOL. although my mom may disagree with that (she is the german).

so what are the pro's and con's of using a power pully to counteract the potential overcooling of the 911 shroud. i am thinking on a T-1 engine here if that makes a difference. i am debating going with a 911 fan shroud for my T-1 until it dies. then i go TIV. btw, with a 911 shroud for a T1 carry over to a TIV too?

[Oliver Knuf]

It's hard for me, as a German, to understand all bits of the discussion. I like Jake's opinion, as he shows the US side of Type 4 tuning. If we were all the same opinion, why would there be messageboards? We would all use the same parts from the same producers, am I wrong?

My opinion is, even if a Type 4 has a 23% bigger cooling surface, use a Porsche style cooling! I just say that, because of two very important things you all miss, the reason for that is maybe, that you compare the Type 4 with the Type 1.

1.The high copper part of Type 4 heads makes a need for cooling the heads more, because they flex and bend more than any other aircooled head, I know.

2.The exhaust of a Type 4 sits not on the sides, it's on the bottom, where air is hard to find for a good port cooling. Try finding hot spots on your Type 4 with indicator tape, then you know, what I mean!