Most Reliable Power per Dollar Spent!?

[Mysticle31]

I'm a newbie to aircooleds. I've posted and done all sorts of reading in the brake and suspension forums.

The car I'm looking to get has three inch wider fenders on it. That's a lotta TIRE! I need something that makes good use of the traction!

I am capable of doing some fab work to put in a SIMPLE watercooled option.

I'm looking for something FUN!!!! That I can be competitive with on the track (no one races SB's here) I want something that will leave Mustang GT's (stock or lightly modified and that class sports car) And something were the corvette and viper owner isn't careful he gets walked on too! but if he's good he sais..wow..look at that thing it still in my rear view mirror! Reliable is also a good thing..

What should I do?

Type 4 (www.aircooledtechnology.net is the only guys I know of.. any good?)

Rotory (most have about 100hp stock just like the Type 4's except the 93+, 87-91 Turbos, Series IV, and GSL-LE) Worth it? I'd imagine in the relm of type 4 vs Rotory 100HP that the 4 might be easier and cheaper but to get more HP factory with the rotory might be better??

What about the Alright, so I bought how to make your car handle. And I've learned a bunch. What I want is a nice firm ride not painful or bone jaring. Mabey slightly lowered in the rear, a lil more in the front mabey (helps weight transfer too!) What is the best way to do it? IE what rear stuff to use and what front stuff do I use? the control arms MUST remain paralell to the ground!

What about the Subaru engines? don't know much about them?

Type 1's (I don't know where to get type 4 parts if I were to sheer build my own and not as a kit. Do they use type 1 parts? That may or may not give a type 1 a sheer cost advantage not having to pay somone for their design and trial time.. but bad if it fails..)

I do have a VR6 engine I'm looking to sell.. Can I put that in? lol

[Poor Realist]

Go rotary. They are smaller than a type 1 engine, a dime a dozen at the wreckers, and there are lots of different trim levels. You can easily get a reliable 160hp out of those.

Of course, this is all hearsay. :cool:

[LOAF]

If interested in rotaries check this site out..

http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions

Some good info..

Why not a subaru WRX engine while your at it. :)
ALex

[Mysticle31]

Those are way wide :D

[TitoRay]

If you have the resources, skills, etc., do whatever you want. If you have the money, Jake Raby of www.aircooledtechnology.com (thats a .com) is a well respected engine builder who is obsessed with the precision and perfection of his trade; type 4 engines. The engines he builds have a purpose and a reputation of being high-powered and long lasting.
Simply put, a 100 hp type 4 engine would be a more logical choice then a 100 hp rotary "conversion."
If you are running huge meats and want to eat Mustang GT's(me too! :D), 150+ hp might be what you want, obtainable via both rotary and type 4. High horsepower(turbocharged?) rotary engines require an intercooler setup(correct?), and more custom work. So if you have what it takes or want to endure the task of installing a rotary engine, go for it!
If you have the funds, you can buy a complete turn-key engine, tuned and ready to haul balls from Mr. Raby.
Of course, their are other lesser-known options as far as combos, builders, etc, but thats another story.
High-powered type 1 engines do well at the track. 11-12 second et's are not uncommon, but driving a type 1 engine capable of these times everyday is not very realistic.
From my point of view, based on your words, you might want to go rotary. A tire boiling 250 horsepower is more than possible. But then you have to consider tranny upgrades, etc..... :rolleyes: ;)

Look at this page specifically... http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions-viewthread?forum=1&thread=6

[Mysticle31]

I've done some reading on Jakes engines. And I really like them. I think that if their power is all in the right spots then I can make best use of it on the street and it'd be better to have less of that then more power that I can't get to. (and the former car would be faster?)

But, I'm not interested in an engine that I've spent money on that's now all taped out for power upgrades in the future. But I like paying more and geting it brand new! (IE heres a built motor that had 150hp modified. vs. 150HP stock or 130!)

[Mysticle31]

I'm curious why type 1's running these wow ET's are a pain do drive?. Those cars might be faster on the dragstrip but with a type 4 outpace it on the street? These aircooled moters. I just learned that some say..Webber 48's would cost 1000! I thougth these aircooled suckers were cheap.. :eek:

What's the deal with Waserboxers or Oxyboxers?

[NO_H2O]

They say a T-1 is better suited for the strip, a T-4 is better suited for a road course (more grunt). A big type 1 likes a 48 webber combo, A type 4 likes 45 Dell's. A 48 IDA is more of an "ON-OFF" fuel delivery were a Dell DRLA combo is a little more driver friendly (smoother). They also say that Dell vs Webber IDF mm for mm, Dells flow better. As for the price of Webbers IDF or IDA, they have gone up in the past few months due to a stike and possible plant closing. I went with a 2275 Type-1, a high torque off road cam and Dell 45 DRLA's and so far I like it.
As far as Waserboxer and Oxyboxer,,,,I don't know much about them.

[TitoRay]

Type 4 engines are generally known to last longer and of the dynographs i've seen, some have almost flat torque curves. Power at any rpm range.

~2.3 liter type 4 lasts ~100k miles
~2.3 liter type 1 lasts ~10k miles??

Point being, type 1 motors with this much power cannot be daily driven without constantly being maintained.

Actually, who knows now. Technology keeps getting better. Nikisil plated cylinders, etc.
:confused: :confused:

[TitoRay]

Oh, and we haven't even mentioned turbocharging type 1's and 4's yet. :cool:

One of my favorite sayings, and oh so accurate...credits to the originator. :D

Power, reliability, cheap. You get to pick two. Or something like that. :p

[boygenius]

I hate rotaries with a passion. The fuel mileage isn't very good and they don't make any low end tourqe. Once you get them reved up the power is very smooth and they pull pretty hard. Mine had about 180 hp according to the local RX-7 shop.



The WRX engine only needs a little triming to fit and they are good for about 280 hp with only a few mods. Do a search in this forum for more information on the WRX swap.

[Mysticle31]

For such a little carb and mani those are expensive (vs say.. Edelbrock for V8's. wowsers!) Mabey I shouldn't dump my MK2 VR6..heh..

Type 4, Rotory, Subie. Anyone know anything about the brases I'd need to reinforce the chasis for a high HP motor? (I'm hoping to add a simple rollcage or at least a roll bar any good ones?)

[LOAF]

WRX engines are good.. I even at one point considered it for my vert.. But do to the clearancing issues, and having to remove material I opted against it..

They do make power.. The one in my car is around 270-280 at the motor.. With some Engine management and a high quality exhaust, it is like night and day.. To bad I can't transplant it into the bug..

Alex

[Mysticle31]

What tranny and drivetrain would I want to use with a Subie engine to make best street use of it's powerband and hold up to that power? How much does a swap cost..on the average (or personal experence)?



Also, where can I get more info on doing say a junkyard supercharger? What cooling issues would there be? (it's like having a bigger engine right? the watercooled don't ness. need bigger rads?)

[Mysticle31]

I just read about something called a Type V Waterboxer (Oxyboxer) What is that? More info please?

[vwpride73]

Forget the rotary, they might make some hp but they lack low end grunt. And the reason say a 10 second N/A type-1 engine is a pain to drive is because to make that kind of hp the need a super high lift cam, monster carbs, giant exhaust, and the heads ( Superflow and such). Now the down side of all of those parts, you sacrifice low end with the carbs, exhaust and the cam. The problem with the cam is that it doesn't "come on" until say 3500-4000 rpm. Now with these after market high-po heads they dont have the cooling fins like say a stock 041 head. Type-1 are mainly a peaky and violent engine compared to a type-4. What do you want from an engine? What is going to be it's purpose? And I think turbo-charging a type-1 or type-4 would be your best bet, but if you lack experience do your homework(books and other online material). The great thing about the turbo is to make more power you dont have to increase the size of the engine, up the compression, or anything else like you would with a N/A engine. A turbo is a torque mutiplier. Turbo = More Torque = More Fun.

[NO_H2O]

I just finish a 2275 Type 1 with Dell 45's, 9.8to1 comp., Street eliminator heads 44x37.5, a Web Cam 122/125, 1 3/4 merged exhaust. I used a DTM type 1 shroud that cools the S.E. heads very well and the cam selection was spot on. It has a very type 4 like torque curve.
http://www.sevwa.com/2275graph.bmp

[Mysticle31]

Oh yeah, That suckers nice. Doesn't have the fuel peaks and vallys like I saw on the 2270 type C?

[NO_H2O]

Sorry the graph stopd a 5500 rpm. The MSD rev limiter hit at 5800 and we lost 2 belts and didn't have another belt unless I took the one off the bug I drove 2 hours up there with and I had to get home so we stopped at 5500. I now have a new plug in for the MSD and the Alternator alignment has been solved.I think the HP curve would have nosed over about 6K and around 155 hp. maybe 160, don't realy care because I have seen the torque curve and it is mean for a Type 1.

[vwpride73]

Like Jake says "Its all in the combo!"

[Mysticle31]

How much did that engine cost you to build? Any theorys as to how long it's suposed to last?

[NO_H2O]

It is built from (slightly) used parts(not the cam/gears, oil pump or lifters, bearings, etc) I did all the machine work and the dynamic bal. job myself at Jakes. I have not added up my cost yet. I'm sure it will not last 1/4 as long as a type 4 built from the proper parts but I will have fun with it as long as I can or I will sell it soon and do a type 4. Mine is truely a swap meet special, but it runs like hell. :agree:

[Mysticle31]

I've recently been thinking to the posibility of a Turbo type 1. I think that would be way fun. And work well.

What makes a good starting point. I was looking at shop talk forums and people are running stock all the way to 2217! I read somewhere that turbos like shorter strokes (or was it longer strokes I don't remember). I'm interested in making power everywhere! So a smaller turbo would be good, that way I could make boost waaaay low. I do NOT want to exceed the 200HP mark in any way shape or forum. I dont want to spend thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars on a Super Tranny for my Super Beetle. Although I do recognise that a perf. tranny is required/recomended.

This is a steet driven car, want gobs of low end torue and to pull like a scaled rabbit to *whatever deemed sane/built for* rpms. .0034% Drag, 20% Road Race/Twisty Canyon road, 80% Street. I'm willing to go and check out the engine every week or two. (Valves, keep an eye on it..) I don't want to worry about taking long trips in it (obviously, I would check it first). Nor do I want to pull it every week.

[Supa Ninja]

I've thrown in the towel with type 1 engines, in my hands they don't last. I've now put 30,000 mi on my 914 and haven't had too much trouble (clutch, FI which led to a little head troubles). Overall the engine is stout and very streetable, it works for me and my lead foot.
From all my research turbos like the shorter stroke so they can wind out quicker, VW Trends put a mild turbo on a bone stock 1600 and it ran strong till it blew.

[Mysticle31]

I've come to think that if this car I'm lookin at comes with a type 4 core and webber cabs. Wich is expensive part (I'd imagine) Mabey it's best if I just go with the type 4. As with the type 1 I would have to buy everything. Well I'm sure I can ger from DCNF's for the type 1 but not like those are going to do anything :D

I wonder how big of a type 4 I can build with Webber 44s.

[Massive Type IV]

I use 44s for Type 4engines up to 2615ccs with great results. The Type 4 is all about port velocity and not volume on the intake side...

The fuel plots on the 2270 were simply that particular dyno session, I have built 200 2270s since then and 9 of them were devoted only to testing...

The site is being updated as we speak

[Mysticle31]

I'm curious then why you use 42/44mm carbs on the 1316? Must be the rpms..


I'd just love your 2270 or 2316 or if I won the lotery (or saved up for extra year..heh..) your 2563. Do you offer the 2563?

I'm currently looking for a more "economical" way to make nice torque and about 160-200HP. Mabey 1.7L or 2L with the 90MM cylinders running 10 lbs boost. Your DTM or stock (type 1 and 4 tin combined and modified upright) cooling. Does the "vanagon" head offer any exhaust upgrades other then using a "real" seal? Mabey 270dir, .440 lift. Mabey stroke a little.. whatever makes a good 'combo'

Considering I can fab the turbo might be good for awhile.

[Mysticle31]

Actually.. I've got acess to a "ED" core. Some said it was a 2L some said 1.8L 2 liters had a 94 bore, 1.8 had a 93 bore, 1.7 had a 90 bore. Wonder if it matters in a turbo.. not a big difference.

[Massive Type IV]

My 2316 turns 8,000 RPM in my 914- with ONLY 40 dellortos!

I do offer the 2563, its a super hero and I only build 4 per year- no more than.

[Mysticle31]

Is there a more 'economical' approch? 180HP rev to 6.5 7 grand.

If type 4 useing Webber 44s.

[zen]

2316 with 45 Dells, BAS header (no mufflers on this run), 44x38 (if i remember correctly)...
http://www.volksport.net/images/projpics/zensrat2316.gif

[beesquad711]

Power, reliability, cheap. You get to pick two.

The more economical you go the more power and/or longevity you will give up. There's no way around it. Powerful, long-lasting motors cost money.

[Mysticle31]

If it's cheap enough to build! It's cheap enough to rebuild. All depends on that ratio. IE if I takes me 100 bucks to build a 180HP engine that will last 50K miles, but it would cost me 150 bucks that will last 100K miles. It's best to go with the latter.



How did you build that engine!! That is PERFECT! What cams? Dispmacement? Headwork? CR, heads..etc

[Mysticle31]

Also what tranny do you use with it? How do you like it?

I want one of these engines! Looks like one of jakes?

[Mysticle31]

Also I wonder what the power is like below 2500. Is it streetable? The numbers at 2500 start out higher then the 2270 type C. And that Dyno sheet starts at 2500 too. (besides that little intro curve. don't tell me the 2270C has no power below that :D )

[Panelfantastic]

I'm making 170hp stock. Stock bottom end is good to 300hp, everything else is good to 400hp (turbo'ed or supercharged). I gave $350 for the engine on ebay and it had never been run (brand new). It will pull to 7k, all day, every day... there's just one big huge catch...it's watercooled :bawling:

[NO_H2O]

Zen's engine is a Jake engine. His trans was built by Jake to match it.

[zen]

How did you build that engine!! That is PERFECT! What cams? Dispmacement? Headwork? CR, heads..etc

Jake and Jake. Took a lot of guesswork and costly errors out of the equation for me. I figured an engine like that didn't need to be my first build (his kits take care of that if you have the time to do the build). I wanted something stupid powerful...got it. Can't beat leveraging the research.

[Mysticle31]

Jakes engine that I saw on there didn't produce 180HP? So you just called jale and ordered a 2316 and a type 2 (or was it type b?) tranny?

Does he offer it as a kit? That car of yours must be a HOOT!! How long is it suposed to last? How can I build one?

[zen]

Jakes engine that I saw on there didn't produce 180HP? So you just called jale and ordered a 2316 and a type 2 (or was it type b?) tranny?

Does he offer it as a kit? That car of yours must be a HOOT!! How long is it suposed to last? How can I build one?

easiest way to handle all of that is just call jake and talk with him. he can talk you through what you need as long as you know what you want out of the car. based on what you mutually agree you need, he can tell you cost and longevity.

[Mysticle31]

Alright, wherever I go, and ask engine questions. I get Talk to Jake Talk to Jake. I've got the idea.. I've also gotten a few. "Ya whatever go build a 1916 type 1 and boost it!" And mabey one person sugested to build a 2117 T1.

would it be worth it to build a big or turbo type 1 while saving for jakes kit (the only type 1 stuff I have is mabey a tired engine. I may be able to get some ratio rockers and some 041 heads. Where as I have a 1.8 or 2.0L T4 shortblock with Webber 44s and manifolds. They all need rebuilds)

or should I just say ya whatever and put the car in the gerage (the 1600 thats in it is tired. Don't know how tired but it's tired) and save to buy the engine and stuff it in? (in the mean time all the money from my old car will go into this car doing paint and interior work)

Or should I just drive it as a tired 1600? How reliable are the tired 1600s? If it will slowly yet reliably. I can save mucho gas $$ buy not driving the 4200lb Ranchero!

[Supa Ninja]

Here's what I would do I were in your shoes. Take your core Type IV engine, rebuild it, put a cam in it and some Porsche 2L heads on it. That should be good for about 120 horses, plenty to spank most hondas and some slower 8's. Save your money and get a sick engine from Jake or another reputable builder. While your at it go through the suspension, then the interior/paint. Looking at the pics it looks like it's straight enough to drive, looks wise.

Nick

[Mysticle31]

Makes me wonder how many magic beans that will cost? perahps it would be better to boost 'er :D I can build it so junkyard rebuilt turbo.

I'm used to my MK2 VR6 with chip. 13.8 @ 102 in the quarter. never clocked 0-60.

[Supa Ninja]

It will cost a lot less then a another engine to replace the one that you grenaded cause you didn't build up the internals to take the boost. If you want reliable power go N/A, if you want a timebomb rocket go turbo. You could always stuff a H2O engine with turbo in your bug, like a 1.8T, or there abouts. Thats a reliable 180 horses, sure your decklid won't close but it's a turbo.

[boygenius]

To turbo the engie will reqire the carburetors to be modified to handle boost. You must decide on draw through or blow through set-up. If you go with a draw through design you must have a turbo with a special seal to handle extreme vaccum. I think its called a carbon seal but I'm not sure. Other wise when you close the throttle quickly and cause a strong vaccum in the turbo the engine oil can be sucked out of the turbo and through your engine. Most turbos from production cars don't have the required seal for a draw through design. To blow through requires extensive work to the carbs to make them able to enrich themselfs under boost. You might want to do some reading on turbo charging your engine. "Turbomania" is a good book if a little dated, but still good information. There is another book that I used to have, I think it was called "turbocharging your engine" or something like that. The book had a calloway twin turbo V-8 on the cover and a turbo Mclaren on the rear cover. Maybe somebody knows what the name of that book really is. Anyway there was some good general turbo information in that book.

Or you could go fuel injected... :)

[TitoRay]

Ok Mysticle, reading your posts I have come to a conclusion. Get a 2270 from jake Raby that utilizes LNEngineering's nickies.
It's gonna cost a pretty penny (7-10k??)
My mentality towards Jake's engines are that they are so professionally built that in the long run, compared to using anything else, they will pay for themselves.
From what i gather:
150-165 hp with this engine combo, maybe more.
excellent gas mileage
no guesswork
way less maintenance
ton of torque
car is gonna haul ***
engine lasts forever
great technical support
etc., etc.
Might as well get a tranny from him as well.
:laugh: :cool:

[Mysticle31]

I would just love to save up and have jake build an engine for me. I've came to that conclustion. Hopefully a powercurve similer to that 2316. Although not so high numbers. I don't like the up and downs in the 2270C. and the 2270C is 148HP in the dyno on his site. Which is plunty. Not building a race car here, just geting a feel for my best options.

Now I want to look for a nice cheap get up and go engine for the 'in between' times. Or I'll just stuff the car in the gerage. Do the paint and interior while saving new wireing fueltank, weatherstriping, seals..etc. Then stuff the engine in and tranny and just have a ball

[Massive Type IV]

The 2270 C is the most efficient engine I build. That is just ONE curve that has been there for over two years.

Keep in mind I have over 60 proven combos for the 2270C!

The 2270 "Roller" engine will make reliable power similar to a 2316 with the same tuning as a standard 2270.

The first roller cam is being designed now, and the engine is just waiting on the cam.

[Mysticle31]

Well unless I go with a corvair engine..lol. I'm saving up for your type 4. Just have to figure out if I should build a beat/blow up a cheapie type 1 first.

How high does 3rd on some of these VW's go? I was riding in my friends BMW 325is and he went to pass a tuck on the freeway, and (can't drop it into third without hiting rev limiter) and droped it in 4th. If I was in my jetta. I can take 3rd up to 101 (gear chart), drop it into third and pass just about anything quickly (on the track GSR's, Newer vr6 jettas, Mustang GT's, could never catch it. Never had any vets, nsx, bikes..) I like having really nice gearing. I don't know how 4 speeds do it. Drop it into 3rd, 2nd? Power/torque acessable for quick quick acceleration from 0-100mph (ha ha just a nice point to stop) and 13.8 in the quarter. Gutted car. I'd love to make a slightly faster, better accelerating car then the jetta. At least match it.

[Massive Type IV]

My 914 with stock gearing will turn 110 in 3rd gear at 7700 RPM.. Thats with 181 BHP and a rev range to 8,300 RPM.. It idles stock and doesn't sound built till you tap the throttle.

[NO_H2O]

"Tap the throttle" LOL.... When do you ever "Tap the throttle" in that thing. :laugh:
That 2316 is the sickest sounding, quickest reving air-cooled engine I have ever heard. It does have a nice smooth idle that will fool you into thinking it is tame. But I can say first hand that it is VERY ill tempered and sounds like it belongs on the Road Atlanta track when you open the taps.

[Massive Type IV]

And next it gets Nickies and a Roller cam set up- Thats automatically a boost to over 200 ponies with no other changes made to the engine..

[Mysticle31]

These revver engines are $$. I'd like to have a good ole cast iron 2270 that could do it. I like the WIDE torque. But I also like the advantage of being able to sit in lower gears for longer then the other guy giving me the multiplication.


Jake, You've kinda been following along. What to do you sugest? (Dont' need anything WOOW! just 150, 160HP. 180 Max, or should I say. Max 10:1 HP per pound in a full mullholland 1302 superbeetle with 944 stuff.


I'm conserned that stock 1st gear in these VW's is going to be too short and useless.. (that's what jake uses in his trannys)?

[Massive Type IV]

The engine in my 914 is a standard 2316 Annihilator.. It makes 152 lb/ft of torque at just 2,000 RPM. Thats good enough to roast the tires any time.. This engine was the first of its kind and so far has been the weakest one I have built.

First is not rendered totally useless, its good for bad *** burnouts! I have an option of an aftermarket mainshaft, but it adds 600.00 to the cost of the tranny. Then we can run whatevcer gears deemed necessary by the dyno plots.

You tell me where you want the power and I combine the math with knowledge and past engines performance and make it exactly as you desire- thats the beauty of non standard combinations- and what you are paying me for..

Its all in the combo!

I'd say you need a 9.5:1 2316 with one broad *** power range and a flat torque curve- nuttin to it, just open the old wallet and slide the engine in!

[Mysticle31]

I'm not to interested in 'put the engine in your wallet' although I do recognice that you need to pay for the good stuff..

So what's the best way to make power good and get optimal use of the gearing? Mabey a slighly taller third. I'm not as much interested in the amount of power I have, as much as I want the ability to use what I have. (although willing to add more as long as it's useable)

[Mysticle31]

My train of thought is this: Making the most of the power you have (or finding a good range/power to get) for optimal take offs per your tirers grip.

That way if I had a really tall 1st gear to make use of the power then. Sure I could take it up to 50mph, but the top end would be useless becouse all the other gears would be adjusted accordingly. And I don't need a car with a top speed of 160.

I can generate more power perhaps, and optimise the gearing. Mabey see if I can wind the engine out to 7, 8 grand instead?

[zen]

My 914 with stock gearing will turn 110 in 3rd gear at 7700 RPM.. Thats with 181 BHP and a rev range to 8,300 RPM.. It idles stock and doesn't sound built till you tap the throttle.

LOL again. of course when you tap that one you are at 7k in the blink of an eye...actually quicker.

[TitoRay]

My train of thought is this: Making the most of the power you have (or finding a good range/power to get) for optimal take offs per your tirers grip.

That way if I had a really tall 1st gear to make use of the power then. Sure I could take it up to 50mph, but the top end would be useless becouse all the other gears would be adjusted accordingly. And I don't need a car with a top speed of 160.

I can generate more power perhaps, and optimise the gearing. Mabey see if I can wind the engine out to 7, 8 grand instead?

He can custom build your tranny any way you see fit. The engines have enough power to easily start in second gear but first gear is an extra "burn-out gear." Just say you want to get to 120 mph as fast as possible based on the power of the engine and the setup of the car. He can make the gears do that.
I'm not sure if you mentioned it and apologies if its a silly question, but have you driven a beetle yet?? :o

[Mysticle31]

Now to throw another stick in the loop (mabey) its not about geting to 120mph as fast as posible. It has to be balanced with the ability to accelerate out of corners/danger just by mashing the gas in the gear that you are in. Unless you want to do it REALLY fast, you downshift (to get peak power). Does that mean close ratio? I don't mind at all if the 3rd to 4th gear shift is a little aqward as long as I can go fast enough in 3rd. (so essencially when I shift to 4th I'm not in the peak powerband but I'm already going way to fast (street) and for the track peak power band aproches rapidly. (Say I was in the middle of noware (AZ, death valley.) I'd like to be able to cruse at a good 90-100.

Of corce..there are sacrafices to be made when I realise how much power I will have vs. how much money to spend will make me a little more realistic about something I will never (or extremely rare) that I do (ie..cruising all day at 100)



Someone onece said autocrosers prefer a 14:1 total 1st gear. And I've seen drag racers use this SUPER short ones. How is that gearing good for them? And their generating all this power on top of it! It seems to render my little "efficency of power delivory and takoff" theory inaccurate.

No I've never driven a super beetle but I have driven many underpowered way high geard cars.

[NO_H2O]

The perfomance type 4 has a W I D E torque band that should do what you want.

[TitoRay]

The perfomance type 4 has a W I D E torque band that should do what you want.

Yes, as in power from ANYWHERE. Drop the hammer from any rpm and you're goin! :cool:
And, there is something to be said about driving a bug with the tranny it has! You have to experience it.

[Mysticle31]

I was just analising and compareing gearing of what I think of modern fast cars. M3, several Porsches, Viper, Vette. I also did BMW 325is, 944, some celicas, corrado VR6

They all share many characteristis. Though all different (except the V8's first gears are WAY different) They all can take 1st to about 40, second to about 70, 3rd to about 100. Which is about what I want to do. With a Cruseing 4th.

Although 1st to 50, 2nd to 80, 3rd to 110 would be spiffy the power and RPMs to get there would be way out there. And would no doubt have to spend much more money. And I am unsure how confident it would be pulling out of corners becouse of the RPMs required to go at X amount of rate. You'd be making X amount of power. But you'd need X amout of power to take off in 1st smoothely, however unless made up for the with sheer RPMS (ie reving to 8 grand) the 1st in this set up would probibly be simililer to 2nd in the stock setup becouse of the custom gearing that there would be no real point except for better regulating of top speed?

New M3 @ 8k. 40, 68, 102, 139, 171, 206. (under 10:1 HP:lb)

911 (Turbo, Carerra. The same form about 96+ 8k (8200 redline but I took the numbers at 8k) 45 80 111 143 173 203
9k 51 91 125 161 195 229 Both of which are WAY powerful

It was interesting to see Viper (also way powerful) @6 grand
57 86 117 152 206 305

My VR6 @7 (under 10:1 HP:lb)
40, 68, 101, 128, 157


All of these are interesting to ponder on. Some of these 5/6 speeds you think hmm I could have made the gearing way lower (who wants to accel on the street over 100 anyway?) but then 1st, 2nd becouse way useless. No burn out gears!!


I did these with factory tires on the cars. It's interesting to see vipers advantage not only in HP but there is so much power there he can wind those gears out bigtime!

[beesquad711]

Mysticle I can only repeat the advice everyone else has given in a similar yet different way. I would establish a budget, meaning find out how much money you really have and want to spend on this powertrain. Once you have a concrete dollar figure I would give Jake a call and tell him what you want. This takes all of the pain out of number crunching and research. He has done all of the work for you already you just have to call and tell him what you want. The biggest difference you have to consider between a type 1 tranny and all of the ones you just listed is 4 gears vs. 6. That means they have to be taller which in turn means a wider power band to optimize the gearing (i.e. type 4). Save your money for awhile and call Mr. Raby. And it may be helpful to take a cruise in a beetle so you can get an idea for how little power you need to make them fly. With 200 ponies you would damn near kill yourself.

[NO_H2O]

Mysticle I can only repeat the advice everyone else has given in a similar yet different way. I would establish a budget, meaning find out how much money you really have and want to spend on this powertrain. Once you have a concrete dollar figure I would give Jake a call and tell him what you want. This takes all of the pain out of number crunching and research. He has done all of the work for you already you just have to call and tell him what you want. The biggest difference you have to consider between a type 1 tranny and all of the ones you just listed is 4 gears vs. 6. That means they have to be taller which in turn means a wider power band to optimize the gearing (i.e. type 4). Save your money for awhile and call Mr. Raby. And it may be helpful to take a cruise in a beetle so you can get an idea for how little power you need to make them fly. With 200 ponies you would damn near kill yourself.
(((((DITO)))))

[Steve Rock]

I have to say that a rotary is the best way to go. Check out www.nopistons.com (I post on there too) Everyone there is very knowledgable. You can also go with carbs or EFI. My bro has a 1975 Mazda Repu (Rotary Engine Pick-Up) with about 250hp and it is a perfect daily driver. You can make as much power as you would ever want in a VW and the engines last forever as long as they have oil and gas. However if you dont change your oil, you loose an engine. Or if you run out of gas (or get fuel slosh) you loose an engine. They are fixable but you usually need a new houseing

[volkdent]

For no money and 115 easy HP stock, 1.8 VW, just to keep things VW. Will last forever, plenty in the junkyards, mucho parts. Put on an Audi 4000 intake manifold CHEAP and you won't have to have any restrictive stuff on the exhaust or intake. For the money, can't touch reliability or power, but the PanelFantastic has a good idea too, and new.

Jason

[Mysticle31]

alot of those sound good, but lots of work to make them work.

For 115, 120HP can't I use a super lightly modified 2L type 4?

Oh, What's the story with these things not being good on the freeway and catching on fire? (I saw that hapen a few years ago. Bug in front of me went around a corner and cought on fire!)

[beesquad711]

Oh, What's the story with these things not being good on the freeway and catching on fire? (I saw that hapen a few years ago. Bug in front of me went around a corner and cought on fire!)

Frayed fuel lines. As long as you change the lines every so often you won't ever run into any problems. Unfortunately beetles have gotten a bad fire reputation because people don't perform simple maintenance.

[Mysticle31]

Are the fuel lines rubber or what? I was planing on running a new tank and fuel lines. Can I just run rubber ones or are there specal molded ones I need to buy?

[NO_H2O]

Just get the propper size rubber fuel line and clamp all the connections.

[beesquad711]

The stock fuel lines are fine you just have to look at them every now and again to make sure they aren't cracked or leaking.

[Mysticle31]

I was going to replace them, just for good mesure. If rubber lines work. I'll use em. (I'm also geting a painless wireing kit and making wireing to move the battery to the front with all new electronics (as I can)) just for good measure.

I'm fimiler with old european electronics!! (ie Trimuph!)

[TitoRay]

. . .and clamp all the connections. . .

Yes! :agree:
Probably the number one reason why engines catch fire. Mine did the day after a shop(of all people) didn't clamp my hoses... :)

[Mysticle31]

besides the fire hazard, what other littler "querks" (especially the more dangerous ones) should I be aware of?

[TitoRay]

If you get a Super Beetle, chances are, unless they've done it already, you'll need to replace or at least inspect the entire front suspension setup. Ball joints, tie rods, pitman arm bushings, steering box, etc...

www.toplineparts.com !!!!!!!!!!!! :D