FAT performance T4 shroud

[Sandeep]

Here's those pics I promised. Don't have a scanner so I decided to buy a digital camera !

Blue GL showing the moon cut for the shroud....
http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/1.jpg
http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/2.jpg

Pic of my 914 2.0 GA engine as delivered....
http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/3.jpg

Sandeep

[Sandeep]

Closeup of the breather tower....compare this to the first pic in the previous post. Look at the fan shroud mount on top of the tower...there seems to be no machining.

http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/4.jpg

This mod seems to be very minor....even in the age of the internet and global information sharing...you STILL have to determine for yourself if something will work or not :mad:

I will keep you posted !

Sandeep

[NYBugman1972]

Man... I had the chance to get a mild modded 2.0 aout a year ago now with a FAT shroud. I turned it down because of it and the fact that I couldn't bargan the guy down or to take it off. Like Sandeep said, if the FAT shroud fits with that minor cut, i'd be all over it. And it looks pretty cool, IMO.

[Alex]

I am not sure if that is the FAT shroud. The Germans had shrouds like that many years ago. But that should be all you have to do....cut a hole and relocate the license plate light above it to hide it. Ask FAT for more details....they should know.
I have seen many cars like that in the late 80s and early 90s before they moved to a machined case shroud. Modifications to an early style decklid like the W decklid is way more and in my opinion it will screw up the look of your old car totally becasue you can not hide it at all.

Alex

[SuperRSi]

I have a FAT shroud on a 2.4L Type IV going into a Meyers Manx and can measure for dimensions if anyone desires. Let me know.

Thanks,

Randy
214-683-9210 cell

[NYBugman1972]

I'd like some measurements, please. I'm curious to find out if it can be done.

[Sandeep]

SuperRSi,

Thanks for the offer. Could you please measure from the center of the crankcase pulley to the top of the fan sitting on the breather tower. What is the diameter of the fan you are using ? # of Blades ?

Thanks for the help !

Sandeep

[Alex]

Also post the diameter of the alternator ring.

Alex

[kdanie]

The Fat shroud will fit with that small cut. I talked to them before I bought my shroud from CIP (cheap copy of the BAS shroud). No machining required. I did not want to have my fan sticking out the sheet metal though so I chose a different shroud.
ken

[Alfito]

Great!
That small hole looks pretty cool!
I do not mind cutting that hole on my decklid. It will be hard to see. Even more if you pass along at 180 Km/h!
:silly:

[NYBugman1972]

For some reason, I like that "crammed in" look that cutting the lid gives you. And, for those who would say "why do that when you can get one that fits in the deck?" My answer? "Because I can".:D

[Sandeep]

That is good news !

The reason I don't want to machine the case is because the engine is a runner and I don't want to take it apart to machine the case.

In the future (2 to 3 yrs) when I rebuild it, I will consider the machining...

Sandeep

[Ephry73]

One question, what VolksWorld Issue was that?

[Sandeep]

March 1999

[Oliver Knuf]

The Germans gave this style up, as the original air blades (Porsche part) behind the fan/ring route the air definitely to much to number 1/2 and not to 3/4. Some specially done aluminum sheets have to be fabricated to get it nearly as good as the deeper sitting form. The main difference is the volume and curve from the shroud behind the ring. Nowadays the form falls straight down behind the ring and is very near the engine case. The older forms look more like a bubble, as FAT has! I wouldn't use it!

[SuperRSi]

I'm back in the same town with the engine, sorry for the delay.

The measurement from the centerline of the crank to the top of the entire assembly (the ring clamp bolting area) comes out to 17.25 inches.

The fan assembly is eleven blades, 9.5 inches in diameter, spinning in a housing with the Porsche part number 901 106 101 5R.

The system seems to work great in a 914, as a friend of mine has been running one for years here in Texas without problems. I do not anticipate problems in the Meyers Manx application I am using it in.

Thanks,
Randy

[Massive Type IV]

If a shroud will keep a TIV/2900cc engine cool running through the middle of the Baja desert for 3 solid days straight I think it will do a damn good job in a street car....but fitment is the question.

I have used the FAT shroud in 914 production class full race engines, 1800cc=180 BHP @ 12:1, no problems at all.

It seems that the Europeans only like European products and the Americans only like our products......and I guess thats the way it will always be.

[Alex]

Jake,

I think you are right with parts coming from different countries but I find this pretty sad. I really do not care where the parts are coming from as long as the quality is good and the price is fair.

There are some great products available from US companies and European companies.
One example that caught my attention:
The Käfer Cup brace kit was developed many years ago for the Cup racers. When introduced nobody really bought them until TGFab did his own version. Another example is the light valve train. For years we heard on the CLF about higher spring pressure with high duration cams and stock or Scat lifters. Now people start to look into lighter lifters, push rods etc.

Also the heritage is completely different. Europe is more track focused and the US more focused on the strip. This is changing now.....which is exciting. And this is the main reason for our website.....show you what is out there, what can be bought....regardless from which country.
The beauty is that we can learn from each other to give quality a new meaning instead of pointing fingers.

Just my opinion on this subject.

Alex:silly:

[Massive Type IV]

Controversy supplies the reader with exciting and hard bitten opinions, states as facts from both sides... No arbitrator is introduced and we can hash things out the old fashioned way while trying to make our point...

I use parts from both sides of the spectrum...as well as other countries as well.

What I do works, and what they do works, the only person that is right is the guy that leaves the conversation knowing more than he did before he read the page.

[Sandeep]

This is what's cool about having both european parts and parts in the US..... there is more than one way to solve the problem :D

The reader of the post is made more knowledgeable about what exists out there.

I for one, am looking for parts that fit my budget and solve the immediate problem at hand (May be creating another one though with out knowing it !).... but I am not keen on paying for overseas shipping.

Sandeep

[Alex]

Sandeep,

a lot of people do not realize that the advertised prices in Europe always contain the tax which is about 16% that you can deduct because you do not have to pay it.
This will cover shipping normally.
I paid about 60$ US for a Kerscher front disk kit from BAS that took about 2 weeks to get to my door. It already entered Canada after 5 days but customs here take are pretty slow.
If you get something shipped you have to make sure that the vendor ships via Economy which means it will cross the Ocean via palne but the rest is done by rail or truck so it will take a little longer than airmail which is very expensive.

You have to pay duty but you have to pay it anyways if it comes from the States and if it is shipped via UPS you have to pay a high brockerage fee too. shipping is expensive no matter from where it comes from to Canada.
Alex

[zen]

Originally posted by Alex
Sandeep,

a lot of people do not realize that the advertised prices in Europe always contain the tax which is about 16% that you can deduct because you do not have to pay it.
Alex

:eek: i did not know that. i did get my rear drums from CSP Germany bought and shipped for about the same everyone here was just selling them for. it was like $150 all said and done. and quick too.

[Massive Type IV]

Once again how much more demanding can an engine be for airflow than when it is subjected to Desert like temps for days at a time in dusty climates, with super low gearing??

Nothing can duplicate the engines need for cooling in that application, no street car has that amount of load on the engine in that type of climate and ambient air temperature.

FATs shroud has been around for years, but I forgot it doesn't count because it uses the Genuine Porcshe fan and not a part from a GOLF!

[Alex]

Ehhh Jake,

my statememt was not about the shroud but more about your comment that Americans like US stuff and Europeans like European stuff. It really had nothing to do with 911 shrouds. I think I gave enough examples that were not even related to a 911 shroud.


Alex

[Oliver Knuf]

Funny, I use all parts, no matter from where they come, the qualtiy is important. I like US stuff as my father imports stuff since the 70'S, so I raised with all the stuff and I know, what's working and what not!

I don't know, what's the deal with the FAT shroud? Hey Jake, I use also Porsche alternators, all the customers who catch up a cheap ring with alt and fan from a Porsche are served with bit's & pieces to complete their fan system by me. I like the original, but Golf alts work as good! Ride a bit more on that theme and we are creating a problem.

[Sandeep]

Guys,

Its good to have a choice when it comes to solving a particular problem... and there is always more than one way to solve the problem...

To me it does not make a difference which part I use... the budget I have will make the decision for me. Alot of people in this community are trying to put a T4 into their ride and want the Porsche fan look, but don't have the $$$ to make it happen

Through my research, I have found I can get a used genuine Porsche alt/fan for about $150-$200 (upper end of my budget) so this is the solution to the upright conversion that I will go with... not because it is a Porsche part...but because it fits my budget.

If I could get a Golf alt/fan for $150... I would use it, but not because it is a Golf part, but because it fits my budget.

Its the budget that will make the decision for me and this means alot of compromises.... but the bottom line is its the consumer who is going to do the research and make the decision and its good to be able to have a choice.

Sandeep

[Sandeep]

I placed the order for the kit this morning. Includes everything but the 911 fan, alt and ring. I have almost 3 weeks off from work during December and I want to have this engine installed in the car with everything but the exhaust !!

I'll post some pics when the box arrives.

Sandeep

[Massive Type IV]

Cool, Let us know, I'm interested to see if it fits in the engine bay with no mods.

[Sandeep]

Sure thing.

I will have to make a small 'Half Moon' cut in the decklid like in the first image of this thread, but I will take lots of pics.

I'm installing this into a '74 bug so I have the late style decklid and I can move the licence plate light up or down a bit to hide the cut.

Pics will follow after the install !! :D

Sandeep

[zen]

please do let us know. i am putting my finger on the trigger. i am interested in knowing how well everything mounts and quality of the materials. i will probably use standoffs if i go with the FAT. still strongly considering DTM though.

[zen]

sandeep, i just talked to FAT about the shroud. what are you going to do about:

1. the oil filler
2. plumbing for the external cooler
3. sealing tin (has anyone tried the OPP btin with a FAT shroud?)
4. linkage (through the shroud behind it, how?)

any places you can recommend to pick up a fan, alt and strap other than ebay (too few) and FAT (too expensive)?

the kit itself seems like a deal, but looks like these little things can add up.

[Sandeep]

Zen,

the oil filler
You can fill the oil by using one of the holes for the oil breather in either head. It will take longer to fill though. When I get my NOS case ready to build, I will bore out the filler location on the pulley side (bottom right) and fit an oil filler adapter tube there.

plumbing for the external cooler
I'm going to use a Mesa Cooler with fan under the rear parcel tray, with an oil cooler adapter off of the stock oil coller location

sealing tin (has anyone tried the OPP btin with a FAT shroud?) Not sure about that one yet... but will conquer when the time comes :D

linkage (through the shroud behind it, how?)
I'm trying to find a linkage like the one shown in Keith Seume's book... Custom Beetle Handbook, on page 81. It is a bell crank style... no hex bar...

So far I have less than $600 invested in the FAT shroud/Porsche alt setup....

I'll do a tech article on my install during the winter.

Sandeep

[Oliver Knuf]

Sandeep, why don't you use the cheap linkage from CSP? It's stainless, left- & right threads on the bars, center mounted. Perfect for a Type 4 and really cheap, around 35$ for you, when I convert it correctly.

[Sandeep]

Looks more like the FAT setup.... Shows some cover tin ideas...

http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/A.jpg


Similar 'Half Moon' cut in decklid with licence plate moved up to cover cut....

http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/B.jpg


Here's a pic of the Bell Crank Linkage (Thanks Oliver for the idea !)

http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/C.jpg

[Massive Type IV]

Notice that the tag light is moved up, and so is the tag, probably to hide the fan clearance areas.......good luck.

The CSP loinkage is great I use it all the time.

[Ron Roberts]

It looks simular to the scat linkage which I have. Is there a way to avoid the idle speed difference from cold to hot due to engine expansion?

Thanks
Ron

[Massive Type IV]

Mine never changes on my cars with engine temperature. one trick I did was to slightly wear the ball sockets a bit with some lapping compound and give som "play" in the linkage, that took care of it.....

The Linkage is way different than any Scat linkage I have ever seen before.

[Ron Roberts]

Slick idea Jake. The scat linkage has bolts that attatch the linkage to the throttle levers on the carbs. I bet I could create some play somewhere in the system. The original kadron linkage that I replaced had the ball and socket, which is the "big complaint" about the kad linkage. I'm not sure why though. Also my engine probably expands about a 1/2" more than yours:)


Thanks,
Ron

[Sandeep]

Hi All,

Here's some pics of the shroud kit that arrived today...

Hardware and instructions ..... looks to be of good quality... the pulley is billet and anodized black...
http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat1.jpg


The shroud is painted a deep cherry red ... Very nice .... It will match my BIG REDS nicely .. :yummy:
http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat2.jpg

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat3.jpg

cont in next post ....

[Sandeep]

Note the interesting wedge shape at the back of the shroud. I wonder if this helps split the air between both cylinder banks.... ? I realize that the shroud will be pressurized but its kind of neat to see it first hand.

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat4.jpg

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat5.jpg

I don't have time to fiddle with it right now but will do so in late December !!


Sandeep

[zen]

thanks for the pics sandeep. still haven't made up my mind. there is some interesting conversation on the DTM on STF that i have been on. i would prefer going that way, but FAT is looking like one of the better options right now.

has anyone used the FAT shroud with the porsche fan conical air fins on the back of the fan? does the air flow still get back to #3?

[Massive Type IV]

Zen,
Pay vince the money and get started, sitting back waiting is not going to do anything except put your further down the list....

He is having a tough time, but I feel confident you'll get a shroud.

[Oliver Knuf]

The fat shroud looks better than I thought from the rear. The air dividing through the shroud form is common here, but as zen asked, on the earlier conversions you had to use the original porsche air fins, that sit on the alt. screwing flange. It wouldn't fit into the fat shroud, but I think, that there's no need for it, as the air is correctly devided. Even #3 will get enough air!

[Pillow]

I agree with Oliver.

Look at part #18 in a real Porsche 911 shroud:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/Parts/914-6/914-6_sheet_metal_big.htm

This is not part of any VW 911 shroud that I am aware of. The way I see it cylinder #1 and #3 get all the cooling and rob #4 and #2.

Plus the remote oil cooler can be a good and bad thing depending on how you plan the work. You need a big big cooler with air flow to keep her cool, like in the Porsche 911 C2 and 993. No little 3 pass tube crap cooler will do the trick.

But what is sweet it that you can run a true 911 cooling system with t-stats so the cooler so the oil will heat up quickly.

As for the Golf alt... I have no idea of its lifespan.

Also I agree with Alex. There is no way I would cut an early "W" lid just for a shroud. But the modern Beetles I could :)

[Massive Type IV]

Just run a DTM and don't worry about it.....

[zen]

Originally posted by Massive Type IV
Just run a DTM and don't worry about it.....

i would if i could get one in the next two months. that is what i want to be running when i go to a RAT 2270. so can you help me out with a DTM in the next two months? :) although i trust you jake, and therefore trust your word on vince, i just don't want to and can't take the chance on waiting 4-6 months.

[Oliver Knuf]

Use a machined Type 4 case with a common Porsche fan conversion and don't worry, too!

[Pillow]

Zen, if you pick up the C2 oil cooler. I would stick with 911 cooling as well as it is a matched system.

But I have low expectations of what comes out of the DTM situation as it is now.

[zen]

wasn't actually chasing the C2 cooler, but may do that. wonder if there is even room to mount it? must inquire. not even sure if it is still available.

[eddie71sbT4_2.6]

Hello. As nice a the DTM may be, the production of the shroud has been very slow. Even for people like my friend who prepaid for the shroud, he has had to wait for over a month now from the promised date of completion. My friend has repeatedly called regarding his order and gotten nothing but empty promises. This problem has really set us back. Not to mention the lack of good customer relations that this gentleman has.
Jake, as customer service oriented as you are, I can't see how you keep on encouraging people to send Vince money, for a product that he is having trouble getting out to the people in the T4 community. I understand that in your opinion it is the best shroud out there; but I feel that we all have to stand back and see if Vince gets his act together. Personally, it looks that we're going to have to go with a T1 style fan shroud from CSP. At least those conversion pieces are readaly available.
It looks like we need some more innovators to come out and provide a better shroud that can be produced in a rapid manner, and not cost an arm and leg...yet be profitable for the manufacturer.
BTW, that shroud from FAT looks very good...

Cheers,

Eddie.

[Massive Type IV]

I could make a DTM kit so easy its not funny, I know more about the shroud than VINCE DOES...(HE KNOWS THAT TOO)

Fact is that I don't want to get into manufacturing anything, too many lawsutites there for me, all it takes is some guy to melt a 10,000 + dollar engine and sue you to take all the profit away for months.

There is ALOT of work in that shroud, I preach about it for one reason, because it works and its worth the hassles involved to get one.

Vince is not my buddy, but Joe was..I want to see that shroud for a long time to come.

[SPEEDY57TUB]

Right Jake, I hope it is still around when we get to my RAT engine! If not, I hope someone takes over or comes up with something to "somewhat/kinda" take its place.

By the way, the alternator 911 mounted diverter fins are to induce routing of the airflow toward the rear cylinders and heads, especially on the rear driver side part of the engine (looking from the rear). Also, the setup on the article "IS" a Fat one.

BTW Jake, what can I do to make a Nevada smog compliant Type 4 work on a 74 Super Beetle?:cool: I hope we can configure something or else :broken:

P.S. I do have the local capabilities to fabricate......

[SPEEDY57TUB]

By the way, how much is the CSP 911 shroud type centered-bell crank linkage for a Type 1 and also for a Type 4 application? Can I find it locally in Nevada or California, in the US?:confused:

[zen]

hey sandeep,

is the FAT shroud for 240mm or 260mm fan? or is that optional? don't remember seeing but one part number in their catalog and don't remember it specifying. of course i could go get off my lazy ass and look, but then no one else here would know. the ability to rationalize, you gotta love it.

[Sandeep]

The fan # is 901 106 101 5R.

Not sure if it is 240mm or 260mm but this is the one that fits. I'll post pics as soon as the fan assembly gets here.

Sandeep

[zen]

assuming average condition, what is low, fair, and high price for one? like to know the ranges so i don't have to kick myself in the head later.

[Sandeep]

I got mine for $210 inc shipping... Right place right time :D

There's a couple on ebay now .... by the end of the auction, I'd think they would go in about the $300 range.... :(

I think Low is about $210, mid about $250 and high about $300 ?

I don't mind paying these prices right now, this applies to all my stuff... as there is always a market for genuine porsche parts (my wheels, calipers, rotors, fan/alt, gauges ect...). If I ever had to sell it all :eek: I'm sure I could make most of it back.

Sandeep

[zen]

yea. i have been watching those and thought that might be on the high side. especially not knowing if the alt even works and one needs conditioning. note the high bidder on the one getting ready to end? ;) the name should look familiar.

i have a couple of parts houses i am checking with too. my dad thinks he can get a 5-blade fan for free. i have seen those used once or twice, but don't really know any specifics on what it takes to use them (if they are any different at all).

[SPEEDY57TUB]

I save money on mine by having a local rebuilder rebuilt my units. Make sure they use the German bearings. My rebuilder tends to like the Bosch units more than the others.:haveadrin

[Sandeep]

Hey all,

I test fit the shroud this afternoon.... talk about quality.. I didn't have to trim or grind anything to fit..... I just had to drill 2 5/16" holes in the breather tower where the wire bale was to insert the aluminum block that bolts to the fan mount.

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat6.jpg


The shroud fits like a glove... instructions are very simple to follow...

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat7.jpg

Another view....

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat8.jpg


All I have to do now is get the fittings for the breather box. I'll buy that this week sometime.

Sandeep

[zen]

are you leaving the oil filter in its stock location or relocating it?

[zen]

nevermind that last post, sandeep. i already know the answer to that.

well it is purchase day for me today. looks like i have a fan/alt setup. just waiting on final confirmation. just ordered the FAT shroud (in red) and oil cooler and filter bypass a minute ago.

so now to oil cooling and exhaust. probably going BAS. was tempted by the FAT but not gonna do it. have to do some research on an afforable oil cooling system.

[zen]

just locked in the fan/alt too. it was a good day. i also ordered a remote entry system/alarm today.

Christmas is complete.

[Massive Type IV]

Good choice on the BAS and the FAT shroud, now we can build you a 270D version and have 2 pieces already!!

[zen]

that's the idea. much of what i am buying is a little overkill for a stocker, but i am buying for the future. now to see if the engine really even runs (i don't have full trust in PAP) or i may be coming to you earlier than i thought.

[Sandeep]

Zen,

How does it feel to move ahead ? Congrats on the purchases. I'm purchasing items for my future 2270, like you.

I've been fooling around with the 44 IDF kit over the last few days..... The kit was new through Cal Imports... but it said 'Intake Horns not included' but they came in the box ! Nice suprise. As well, the air filters in the picture were the square ones... I wanted the oval ones... guess what came in the kit.. THE OVAL ONES ! Nice suprise again.

I had to do some minor filing with a Rat Tail file to get the holes for the intake studs to fit on the heads but thats about it.... had to trim the intake gaskets as well but I think you have to do that for all systems.

One other thing about the carb kit... it came with 5/16" fuel line... I'm not sure of the diameter of the stock fuel line (Will measure it next time) but it looks smaller. And the stock fuel line fits into a 'T' which feed 2 5/16" dia lines.... I think the stock fuel line needs to be changed to keep up with the carbs... have to research that.

I've got the carbs ready to bolt on now .. long block install happening this weekend ! I'll take pics and post to keep everyone updated.

I've decided on the BAS 21152 ... good up to 200HP. I'm hoping for between 160-180hp from the future 2270. Not sure about the stainless version or steel and ceramic coat. I'll go with a custom muffler setup though.... need to install the 18x10's with 265/35's to see what kind of room I have.

I've got an oil cooler block off adapter tapped for 2 external lines... I'm looking at a MESA-Cool cooler 48 plate 8"x11"x1.5" with fan, thermostat. I want to install it under the parcel tray in a box from racerpartswholesale with 2 NACA ducts feeding cool air to it. The fan should be able to draw from the ducts in standing traffic. Still researching this though....

Sandeep

[Massive Type IV]

Just don't go too crazy buying things for the new engine......The shroud and the exhaust are pretty universal as well as a Mallory Distributor.......drop me a line before buying anything else, as I may not want to use it after you buy it,some stuff is just junk!!

Zen, you need to come see me.

[zen]

Zen, you need to come see me.

yea, i really do. i haven't even sent you a check for a video because i keep saying i will just be up there anyway. will you be around 26th or 27th? or just let me know whenever you are available and i will find the time. i want to make sure you are cool with what i am buying. i should also have a flywheel by then and will need it setup for the conversion. do you have the bushing or do i need to order one? shoot me an email if needed. zenhardy@charter.net

zen

[Sandeep]

Another evening, another step completed :D

I've mocked up the 44 IDF's to see how the hex bar linkage would install and here's what I've found.

The linkage installs with some slight problems... I had to cut about 1/2" off each end of the bar stock... I think the bar is standard and needs to be cut to length... there is about 1" of thread inside the bar after I cut it.

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat9.jpg


After installation of the linkage, you can see that there is about 4-5mm of clearance between the shroud and hex bar... TIGHT... but nothing rubs...

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat10.jpg


You can see that the right drop link is almost vertical and the left drop link is not... this will definately affect throttle operation in the left carb ... I checked to see if I missed a peice in the installation but I didn't. I'm going to have to fab a small extension peice from some bar stock I have laying around so the left drop link is vertical as well. No big deal....

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat11.jpg


Other than that, Its now time to install this baby !


Sandeep

[zen]

Originally posted by Massive Type IV
Zen, I just booked a fishing trip for that week since things are going to be so slow and UPS is so goofed up......I'll be here till xmas and then be abck after the 29th

very cool. hope you have fun. word has it you need the vacation. :) i will see if i can get out there later this week.

i have been debating on crossbar vs. bellcrank linkage. mainly because i was aware there can be issues with this shroud. i assume the CSP linkage that is for a type IV with a 911 shroud will work with the FAT shroud, but i am not sure. any idea?

[kdanie]

I have the CSP bell crank on my engine, very nice piece at a good price. I think it would fit with the FAT shroud but it will be close where it bolts on to the case. It uses the last two case through bolts for mounting. I had to use longer bolts and a couple of flat washers to make it fit perfect.
ken

[Sandeep]

In my last post, you could see that the carb linkage did not look right and only opened up half way with the way the hex bar was set up (left carb)

I sorted this out by making a small 'extension' for the left side drop link. I took some hollow bar stock I had laying around and it just happened to have the correct inner dia to tap a 6mm x 1 thread into it.

I drilled the linkage connection point on the carb arm to enlarge it to 6mm from the factory 5mm. I then tapped the other end of my 'extension' to fit the factory 5mm linkage bolt.

The extension is 1" in length, is solid, I loctited everything and now I have no play what so ever, and both carbs work like they are supposed to.

Problem solved....

Sandeep

[zen]

very cool. get us some pics when you can. i am thinking i will go bellcrank linkage, but i guess i depends on what i do about carbs and if i get a whole kit or not.

i got my fan yesterday (one day shipping during the holidays from a neighboring state, not bad UPS). going to talk to a powder coater hopefully today. haven't decided color, non-color or what yet though. guess i better do that.

if FAT can be half as quick, i will be able to do some of this over the xmas break from work.

[Massive Type IV]

Zen, watch who powdercoats it, the fan is magnesium and will really goof them up if they get it too hot, or use too much powder as the magnesium actually breathes as it gets hot.

[Sandeep]

Installed the long block... now time to run wires, fuel line, paint firewall....

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Engine1.jpg


Another view ...

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Engine2.jpg


Update ... I used some sprayable truck bedliner

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Fat13.jpg

[zen]

sandeep, based on what you see and know, will bellcrank linkage work with the FAT shroud? looks pretty tight. looks like i have a trade for some manifolds and they are the tall ones. so clearance will be better for the linkage there.

[Sandeep]

Zen,

There will be room for the bell crank linkage. My kit came with the hex linkage so thats what I'm using. Don't want to go through the hassle of selling this one and then getting the Bell Crank.

Sandeep

[zen]

cool. i think i will probably go that direction. my shroud came in today. got my heads off finally. time to do some work on them (like get the #1 cylinder detached from the right head).

and we're off....

[oval55]

Looking good, great pics. When yoiu get your exhaust installed could you snap a pic, curious to see how much of the header and exhaust will be seen below the apron.
Looks like the shroud was a easy install, sure do like the look. Will you staill have to notch out the deck lid to have clearance?

Good luck with the project, keep posting and have a great holiday. Darren

[zen]

btw sandeep, do you know what you are doing with the dipstick tube yet? when i was over at jake's place last weekend, he was showing me a FAT setup he is doing where he was using a pushrod tube for the new dipstick tube. i haven't tried it yet myself.

[Sandeep]

Zen,

When the fan gets here, I will install it and see what I need to do to the tube. I think I will gently bend it so the fan fits and then use an automatic tranny dipstick (GM car ?) cut to fit because it is flexible.

Sandeep

[Massive Type IV]

Zen, that was actually chromoly pushrod material, for it to work the case needs to be drilled with a letter "S" bit, not advisable if the engine is already together.

[eddie71sbT4_2.6]

Hello. Sandeep, have you purchased or located your fan ring/fan/alternator set up yet?. I'll be purchasing a Fat system for my 2.6 ltr. ; I have a late model bug decklid on my 71 super beetle, so I hope that it will fit properly as in the first pictures posted on this topic.
I called Greg at Fat regarding this shroud set up. I asked which fan I would need for this shroud. He told me that any 911 fan assembly exept the 3.6 ltr. would fit. Do you know what the diameter/size would be for the correct fan??. He also said that the fan required should not have the curved fan blades. If you happen to know what part #'s would work, I would appreciate that a lot. I will probably try to source my fan set up from wrecking yards in Los Angeles.
Please keep us posted with your project. It looks really nice. I can't wait to get my shroud.

Take care,

Eddie.

www.germandreams.com

[zen]

Originally posted by Sandeep
The fan # is 901 106 101 5R.

Not sure if it is 240mm or 260mm but this is the one that fits. I'll post pics as soon as the fan assembly gets here.

Sandeep

here is the info from earlier in the thread. more info there too. check page 4.

[SPEEDY57TUB]

:) If I am not mistaken, that ring shroud number corresponds to the larger diamter 260-mm fan. I do not have my information with me but I can tell you that the smaller 245-mm waqs not as widely used and was used a great deal with the racing powerplants. If you place the fans next to each other for comparison, the difference would greatly and easily be evident since the hub sections are identical and the 245 fan blades do not extend radially as much as the 260 blades. I'll see if I can post some information later. What is required by some of these kits is to machine the outer diameter of these rings. An already weakened and possibly fractured ring will fail structurally if this is done since some of the ribbing structural details casted around the perimeter of the ring are removed and the sections are thinned as a result. If you are going this route it's ok as long as you get a good ring and try to get it NDT'd (Non-Destructive Testing) to ensure it is good. I have several rings at home, let me know if you need any measurements compared to part numbers. Good luck!:haveadrin

[SPEEDY57TUB]

BTW, the later 3.6 12-blade fans, even thought the bottom ring profile is the same as the previous, will not fit since the assembly is much deeper and the alternator and fan spin independently via a shared axis and double pulley system (with different pulley ratios). The crank also has two pulleys of different diameters. the rear of the assembly incorporates an additional small fan to cool the alterantor inners. If you are creative, you can make part of it work--I am doing that currently with one of these assemblies (It is a pain in the a** ;):silly: :takethat:

[Sandeep]

I just had the fan/alt/ring shipped late last week. I hope it will be here within the next few days. I'll post pics as soon as I get it out of the box and on the engine !

I also ordered my oil cooler setup... 96 plate Mesa with fan & 180deg switch, 180 deg oil thermostat and plumbing.

I'm working on ducting right now because I don't want 180deg air blowing around the engine ... going with NACA ducts and a box for the cooler and then ducting to take the heat away from the engine. I'm working on making it look trick, and like something you would find on a race car.

Zen,

You beat me to the BAS... I guess you bought it in between my first and second email to the seller ! :reallysad

Looks like you'll be doing a tech article on the install ! :hehehe:

Sandeep

[zen]

Originally posted by Sandeep
Zen,

You beat me to the BAS... I guess you bought it in between my first and second email to the seller ! :reallysad

Looks like you'll be doing a tech article on the install ! :hehehe:

Sandeep

doh.:eek: looks like i may have stepped on two toes there (you and vujade). sorry. i was buying this week anyway, saw the post and hit him with an email.

i am having my fan powdercoated this week. i will send some pics as i get them. i am going gloss black. this guy is top notch if anyone needs a referal. he is the guy that jake is using for his stuff.

looks like i am heading over to pillow's this weekend and chigger is coming over from NC. i am bringing my longblock over to finish it up. just need linkage now.

[eddie71sbT4_2.6]

Thanks for the replies!. I began searching for my fan set up. Hopefully I won't break the bank. As far as my oil cooling set up goes, I plan on running a front mounted oil cooler ( RX-7 or Mercedes). I plan on using the A/C condenser housing installed by the dealer. It uses two pulling fans. I plan on doing a similar set up as yourself Sandeep. It'll use a thermostatically controlled sandwich plate adapter, and a thermostatically controlled fan switch. I'm not sure if it should turn the fans on @ 210 deg. or 180 deg...
Anyways, I should be ordering the shroud pretty soon. Hope to see some more pics from you guys soon.

Thanks,

Eddie.

[Sandeep]

OK,

I'm wiring up my gauges this weekend (VDO oil P&T and CHT and proper senders).

The CHT thermocouple mounts under the spark plug. I'm going to mount it under #4 plug because the concensus is that 911 cooling pushes more air to the back of the shroud than the front, so the front pair of cylinders (rear of car) should run hotter.

I will then get some temp readings ... and then transfer the thermocouple to #3 spark plug to get a comparison.

Anything else that should be done ? Consider this an experiment with results that will be shared here for everyone.

Sandeep

[kdanie]

Sandeep, did you notch the ridge around the plug hole for the sending unit tang? It will fit much better if you do. I am set up with CHT senders under all 4 plugs going to a rotary switch so I can monitor all cyls. Not much more money but alot more info on what is going on.
ken

[zen]

jake mentioned a company on some thread somewhere, STF or here (REALLY need to find that because i am having a hard time finding the same info on the web), called Westech. They make aircraft gauges to your specs. they have a circular or square gauge they can build with all four CHT's in one gauge. pretty sweet. that is NOT the low cost solution though. :) but not real expensive as i recall.

someone let me know if you find the site page with the gauge build info.

[Sandeep]

Thanks for the heads up Ken. I will do that. I understand what you are doing with the 4 thermo's. I just want to be sure that when I'm WOT on the back straight, the heads stay about 350 - 375.

I have a datalogger that I used on my old 125cc race kart. Digitron is the name... it measured RPM, CHT, Water Temp, and Exhaust temp. Cool thing was, it would record the peak values for each and after the race, you could look at the graphs.

You couldn't read it while racing (last thing you want to do in a kart @ 100 mph is take your eyes off the road.)

I hope to use the gauges to make sure the engine is holding up and to make me confident in the systems I have chosen to cool my engine. Once I'm comfortable with that, then I can concentrate on winning races !

Sandeep

[zen]

sandeep, questions for you:

1. when mounting the pulley, did you just cut off the stem that was used to index the fan? since the three bolts are offset indexing is not a problem with it removed.

2. did you remove the four bolts on back around the crank that used to hold the shroud?

[Sandeep]

Zen,

Yup, I used a dremel and trimmed off the little stub for the pulley crank because the 3 holes in the fat pulley are offset.

I'm not sure of the 4 bolts you are talking about. I did remove 4 studs around the crank pulley at would interfere with the pulley belt. Are these the ones ?

Sandeep

[eddie71sbT4_2.6]

Sandeep, have you received your fan yet?? I'd be interested in seeing some more pics. BTW, in your instructions from FAT, does it mention if you have to use the tins that go under the cylinders? Either T1 or T4 style...Jake says that those tins back up the air in the shroud even more than if it didn't have them!! What are your plans for that issue??
Good luck,

Eddie.

www.germandreams.com
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eduardobrown/index.html

[Massive Type IV]

stock TIV is only good for a stock TIV cooling system, the air direction has everything to do with it.

Thats why the TIII Tins on a TI engine don't work either..If it worked better VW would have used them.

[eddie71sbT4_2.6]

Jake, so you would not use the tins under the cylinders? In your experience, does the airflow reach the lower part of the cylinders eventually?. I know & appreciate your views on 911 style set ups even though you personally don't like them. Since I'm going with 103's need the feedback on this issue. Know what I mean?. Hopefully down the road I'll be able to shell out the buck$ for the nickies.

Take care,

Eddie.

[kdanie]

I asked Oliver about under cylinder tin a while ago. He told me that the German tuners use type 4 under cylinder tin with no problems.
ken

[Wally]

Ken,
To add to that, they do not only use them with 'no problems', but its use is regarded mandatory.
Walter

[Massive Type IV]

They obviously never tested it back to back on the same engine and saw the power changes or the difference in the cylinder temperatures..

I have.

[zen]

so do you end up with a hot spot underneath the jugs or is there an edy of sorts that cools underneath? i had just been assuming that the tins we a must. glad this came up as a discussion point.

[Wally]

Remarkable Jake, what would be the reason for the higher temperature when the tin is left out, since the tin has an edge, that scoops up air which would otherwise flow through the engine and is lost? Now the scooped air is redirected back to the underside (middle) of the cylinders, which in turn should provide better cooling!
I'am confused. Please help us out Jake!
Walter

[Massive Type IV]

Yes, use the TINS, but not the TIV tins. I use TI tins for this...

Believe what you want, but the tin on every single upright engine that has left my shop since 1997 has had these tins, ever heard anyone complain about their engine running hot?

The TIV tin is made to create a restriction, as the air blows over the cylinders horizonatlly, instead of verticaly down over the cylinders...

Believe what you want, German tuners don't know everything just because they are in Germany, and I don't know everything either, but I have the data to prove what I'm saying, all from the same engine same day, same dyno and same loads. Do they?

Zen, I'll even show it to you next time you come here.

[zen]

thanks for expounding on that with some more detail, jake. that makes more sense. i think we were all under the impression that you were recommending NO tin. makes more sense now.

shoot me an email and let me know when is a good time to come up.

[Wally]

Originally posted by Massive Type IV
Do they?



Well, to be perfectly honest Jake, I don't think they have.
Thanks for the explaination.

Just to be clear on the issue for my (engines) sake: Do you use the same T1 tin on an upright cooling as you use with a porsche axial fan set-up?

Zen, maybe you can make a (sneek) picture of the tin mod, if that's ok with Jake of course, since it is his development.

Thanks,
Walter

[zen]

unrelated, here are some pics that i found on the net of another FAT install on a bug. sandeep, i will email these to you as well.
first of two.

[zen]

two of two

[Oliver Knuf]

Just a few questions, Jake. Do you used heat indicator tape or a few more temperature senders on one cylinder/cylinder bank or both banks to come to such a result? Did you tested that on a Type 1 with the Type 3 tin, too?







:silly: Sometimes I think I'm mad! :silly:

[Sandeep]

Thanks for the pics Zen.

Sandeep

[Massive Type IV]

I have 2 sets of CHT gauges. One of them is from www.westach.com and features 4 gauges in one housing with thermocouples on each spark plug. I also have another quad gauge that has probes that fit in the lower side of each cylinder.

When I did the testing I was working with the late Joe Locicero. He sent me a 24 probe thermocouple and harnass set that had 6 position switches for taking reading from 24 locations at once in real time with 4 gauges. This is the harnass he used to effectively design the DTM shroud.

So yes, the information was gathered with accurate gauges, just the two CHT gauges aI have in Quad form cost me over 1,000 bucks. I take what I test seriously, thats why I post so firmly, as I know the truth.

I did the TI test with TIII tin a long time ago, when I first got the dyno. I did not log very much data about it, it was a TI and I was just playing around..

[Oliver Knuf]

I've got a few more questions, Jake. Thanks for your fullfilling anther.

Why do you think, is it better to use the Type 1 reflectors instead of the original metal parts? Did you measure the temperature for this test at all four spark plugs or maybe under the cylinder in different positions, too? Did you test that on all kinds of engines with all kinds of fan systems? At least, what was the difference when using the Type 3 sheet on the Type 1 or was there any difference and did you measure the temperature again under all spark plugs?

Thanks,

Oliver ( <-- :silly: )

[Massive Type IV]

Oliver,
I explained the reasoning for the TI tins in an earlier post, it is due to the direction of the airflow.

Yes I did test this with full westach instrumentation, quad CHT and also one probe under each cylinders 3rd fin.

I also used the 24 probe harnass and installed 6 senders in different locations for each test, with 4 gauges I could watch each cylinder in real time... The differences were not small, and when the fan belt was removed from each one the engine magically produced 4more HP than with the TIV tins under the cylinders.

If VW would have wanted to restrict the airflow and keep things cooler don't you think they would have used TIII tins under the cylinders on TI powered busses? They did not because they understood the dynamics of the airflow.

For the cooling system to work efficiently the air must be able to escape almsot as fast as it goes over the cylinders, else it stagnates and does nothing...

I'm going to be testing my new version of DTM really soon, probably in 2 months . It is equipped with positioned stator vanesto direct airflow, at that time I wil also prove this cylinder tin debate again with my shroud, as I plan on offering the TI tins with the kit.

On a TI engine, the TIII tins did alot of harm, look on cal look com and do a search I posted the info there about 6 months ago,.

[Oliver Knuf]

This temperature story is nice, but it's only static dyno work. Place around 20 tapes per cylinder and drive the car w/engine, where it has to live (...on the road/track/Autobahn), You'll receive more concrete measurements of the maximal heat, that is reached at nearly every point I want to measure. Ok, you can't make diagrams and you can't see it directly in °F, but what you can tell then is, that you'll have hot spots on the cylinder, where the wear is bigger, when you use the just Type 1 plate instead of the more complex Type 4 sheet metal (Besides, who speaks about using it as it comes?). Measure cylinders after a life of driving, you'll see it!

You should talk to another dyno and test fetischist in Germany, that is Mr. Rolf Klaus in person (http://www.klaus-kaefertuning.de). He invented the underside head cooling (you can believe it or not) where cooling air streams through a heater hose to the middle of the head on the downside, to cool the engine as effective as it can be cooled...

http://www7.brinkster.com/oschoppm/klaus3/images/lukue/lukue_rsk.jpg

...surely only with his Porsche style fan system.

http://www7.brinkster.com/oschoppm/klaus3/images/lukue/lukue_hu.jpg

Btw, this is definitely not my thing, but this is an example, how to develop the best of a part with a lot of tests and time, talk to him. I think, he'll still have some news for you, as he's pretty the same guy like you. Testing, testing, testing and saying (with facts on papers), that all what he builds is perfect in contrast to other tuners! Sorry, but that are just my 2 cents to that and a lot of other themes!

[Wally]

Oliver,
Could you attach those pictures again maybe? I can't 'see' them now, its just a small x in my screen.

That Klaus redesigned Porsche cooling shroud and special underside engine tin is a very interesting development indeed. Its under the heading of 'Luftkuhlung' (aircooling) on the Klaus site. Fortunately you don't have to speak german to understand those pictures. Now I understand why another very respected german tuner (Gerd Tafel, with his fully equipped mex beetle with 2733 cc T4 with FI that did measured (VW Speed)0-62 in 4,5 sec) use the Klaus intake and cooling system in their own cars...

Thanks for the update in the latest technology. Thats one of the great things about this forum IMO.

Walter

[SPEEDY57TUB]

:cool: Oliver, Klaus does some nice work! I love his shroud design, especially the profiling on th rear to address airflow directioning. Very innovative individual!;)

[zen]

sandeep, did you thread the holes drilled where the bail holes are? i am thinking not and assume that the stud threaded on both sides with a 3-5mm non-threaded area in the middle is the stud that is used there.

also, what size fitting are you using for the breather under those. i am thinking of using a 45 angle instead of straight so i can use it for some very slow oil filling for the lack of a better place.

[Sandeep]

Zen,

Yup, those are the ones. I just drilled the bail area so they just push in. I used loctite to secure them into the aluminum peice that the fan mount bolts to.

As for the breather, I bought the Bugpack breather kit and it came with the fittings that have an o-ring.

I drilled a hole BEHIND the breather tower (instead of the side, like in the instructions) because I'm going to route the breather tube THROUGH the shroud to keep the engine bay as clean of hoses as I can.

As for the oil filling, I filled the case before I bolted on the fan mount. On my engine, I have a factory breather vent on the right head (when viewed from the rear) where one of my breather tubes fit. Its really easy for me to fill the case from this fitting.

BTW, I talked to Oliver about the factory oil filter location. He said I could use the factory location with the BAS but use a smaller dia Rabbit filter. I'm getting the header ceramic coated anyways so this should help keep the radiated temps down in that area.

Hows your install coming ? I hope to have mine done in the next 3 weeks. I'm STILL waiting for my fan assembly to get here ... #@$$# USPS !

Sandeep

[zen]

so just to verify, no threading in the bail holes right?

i haven't done much in the past few weeks. i already bought a remote filter mount. i figured for $13 it gives me some flexibility. i need to find a ceramic coater around here too. need to re-research which coating to go with.

on the oil filling, i have the same option since i too have 2.0l heads. not being able to fit it yet, i wasn't sure if there was clearnace to do that. i like the idea of running it in the shroud to hide it.

and afterall the FAT deliberation, i am hitting the reality that i may have some extra cash available and may be able to do a bigger engine sooner. have to do some more math though and wait to see what my accountant has to say on the taxes. if so, i may ditch the FAT shroud and go to a sharpbuilt so i can close the decklid. another option is i have given the body/paint guy a link to this thread to see what creative decklid options he can come up with.

was just thinking, if jake builds an engine with a FAT shroud, does that make it a FAT RAT?

[Ephry73]

All of this information is very good, but what to use for a oil breather? make one up? buy it made? or buy the CSP one?


E

[Massive Type IV]

Yeah, it would be a FAT RAT!!!

Jake is absolutely swamped right now.............I'll do what I can, but count on mid sunmmer for delivery if I get the order now!

[zen]

fwiw, i got mine from CB since i was already ordering parts from them.

[Sandeep]

Zen,

Correct, no threading on the bail holes, just drill them so the studs go through.

When I get my 2xxx cc engine built, I'll go with a 911 shroud, but one from Germany. (Klaus maybe ?) and a cool airbox to match.

I just want to get my car on the road and running right now.

Sandeep

[zen]

ok, jake. we will talk hopefully this weekend when vujade comes up. i am hoping to tag along with him and show him the way up there.

[Massive Type IV]

See you Saturday!!!!

[Sandeep]

Here's an update as to where my project sits so far.


I've installed the 911 Alt/Fan and wired it up, as well as the 050 dizzy and 8mm silicon plug wires. I will get an automatic trans dipstick (flexible) from a GM car to check oil with.

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Ready1.jpg


The alt/Fan is genuine Porsche :D

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Ready2.jpg


Now just have to install the BAS header and get a custom exhaust made to order.

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Bas.jpg


After that I will make the moon cut in the decklid and hopefully I can be on the road in 2 weeks MAX !

Sandeep

[vujade]

looking awesome Sandeep.
I bet you cant wait to get it on the road :D

[zen]

lookin good my man. looks like my shroud will be going up for sale after all of that.

i just got my BAS ceramic coated. the whole exhaust for that matter. i will get some pics and post them. pro-powdercoating (www.propowdercoating.com) did it. that is the same guy that did my fan. he did a great job. i recommend him to anyone.

[Ephry73]

Love that exhaust! that the BAS one? how much was the total package to the US?> What are the specs of the exhaust? any fitment problems? have you ran it yet? Just curious


E

[Sandeep]

Thanks for the comments guys !

The exhaust is a BAS 21152 in steel (going to get it ceramic coated gold !). Not sure of the specs but its good to 200hp.

Let me know the measurements you need and I'll post them. I got the header from Oliver @ PTP. Took less than 2 weeks to get here from Germany using economy freight, cost 350,00 Euros, including the shipping, the copper gaskets, and the nuts and washers. Add customs on that and you have yourself a kickass header.

I haven't fit the header yet. I'll do it this weekend and post post as well.

Sandeep

[Sandeep]

I've fit the BAS header to the engine. When it came out of the box, I think it got tweaked just a bit. I spent about 2 hrs trying to fit it but it wouldn't go.

I stepped on one end and grabbed the other and gave it a good yank to spread apart the mounting flanges. This helped and I fit it in about 20 minutes.

A tip, I used spray adhesive (3M carpet type) on one side of the copper gasket and stuck it to the underside of the head at the exhaust port. When the engine starts up, it should burn this away.

One other tip ... I got new nuts and these thick washers from Oliver as well as the new copper gaskets. I had to shave about 1/8" from a side of each washer because there was not enough cleasance between the exhaust stud and the header pipe. No big deal.

The fuel pump is installed and works great, very quiet. I got the fanbelt installed at tightened down, got the 96 plate mesa cooler installed with thermo fan switch and oil thermostat.

The BAS header fit without having to relocate the stock oil filter ! BONUS ! There is about 3/4" clearance between the header pipe and the filter. This should not be a problem and I'm going to get the header ceramic coated winter 2003 and run a smaller diameter rabbit filter.

All I have left to do is to get a custom muffler fabbed up, cut the decklid with a moon cut, and get an automatic tranny dipstick and I'm good to go !

Sandeep

[Ephry73]

Sounds pretty decent! so 350 EU including shipping? that is a sweet deal!

Any pics of the fit?


Thanks for your postings.



E

[Sandeep]

Here's a pic of the engine, complete and running except for the muffler and dipstick. Will get to that this week...

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Final1.jpg


A pic of the BAS 21152 42mm header, good till 200hp

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Final2.jpg


Another shot ...

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Final3.jpg

Sandeep

[Sandeep]

Here's the decklid moon cut .. I used a dremel with a cutoff disc. It cut very well, neat and quick. I thought I'd have to get the decklid repainted but the disc didn't even discolor the paint. BONUS !

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Final4.jpg

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Final5.jpg

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Final6.jpg


I haven't moved the licence plate up yet and have cut no holes behind it. I'll see hot the engine runs, and if I need more cooling air, I'll cut a hole behind the plate.

Notice you can only see the cut if you look from UNDER the licence plate light thingy ! The licence plate thingy was moved up about 1 1/2 " from the stock location.

[Sandeep]

A better view of the cut. Its only about 1 1/2" tall. Measure 3 times ! Cut Once !

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Final7.jpg

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Final8.jpg


So there you go. You CAN fit a FAT 911 shroud in a beetle with a 68' and later decklid !

If you don't know what to look for when you're looking at the rear of my bug, you'd NEVER know what kind on engine lurked under the decklid.

I hope you all enjoyed this little journey and consider this thread the tech article !

Hope to have my beast on the road in about a week and then I'll post what kind of oil temps / CHT I'm getting.

Rock On.

Sandeep

[zen]

congrats. that is great news. enjoy it. i know i will when the time comes.

[PIOMAC]

Does anyone know if the BAS bus exhaust will fit in a Splitwindow bus with the rear bumper on? If not then what about the FAT exaust?

[Sandeep]

Well I've been running the car in the evenings for 3 days now, making sure everything is up to par before I start driving it daily starting this Monday.

I still can't get over the power when compared to stock !

I WILL NEED a kafer-cup brace really soon. When I cut my decklid, I didn't make the cut low enough. I need to trim it by about 1/2" towards the bottom of the decklid. In hindsight this was good because it made me aware of the brace problem.

I had these weird scratches on my newly painted fan housing .. turms out that the engine is 'Dropping' when I accellerate really hard and the fan housing is scraping on the decklid in the area I made the cut.

So hopefully the cup brace will cure this problem. I'm sure it will.

Another thing, I was driving behind a dodge Dakota last night and we were approaching a hill, a type of hill that I would not dare attemp a pass with a stock 1600cc. Well I passed him in 3rd gear like I would pass someone going downhill with my 1600cc after getting a good run !

I guess I can now confidently pass while driving ! AMAZING to me because I could not do this before. This engine really woke up my bug, and I can now drive like I'm driving a modern car with power, but is still aircooled !

I will post some engine temps and more experiences during the latter part of next week, when I have some driving time into it.

Later.

Sandeep

[vujade]

that is great Sandeep!

I cannot wait to get my engine done...:D

[NYBugman1972]

Awesome work!

In a related story, I was at The Hershey Pa Porsche swap meet and I met up with a guy selling a running fat shroud'ed 2.0. He didn't believe me that with a small cut you can fit it in a bug. If I had gone there with the intent of buying an engine, it wouldn't be on the back of his crew-cab bus.

Enjoy and good luck!

[Sandeep]

OK,

Drove it to work this morning. The trip is about 15 minutes, with one valley (up and down, moderate incline for about 1 min) and the rest pretty flat.

The head temp (monitored at #3 cyl) varied between 150 and 250 deg. It was a pretty relaxing drive, 80 kph (50mph) speed limit. Oil temp hit 180 deg (fan turned on) when I pulled into the parking lot.

I accelerated up the hill in 4th !

I'll have an even better idea of how this engine performs when I go the Boxer AG meeting this Wednesday. I'm taking the long way there, about a 30 minite drive and I'll get it up to 90 - 100 mph for sure !

BTW, I cooked a 165/80 on the weekend :D .. had to buy some el-cheapo 195/65 's to get me by until I can put on my 18's.

The muffler is still a bit too loud on the car (Dynomax Super Turbo 2 1/2", like a Porsche / Corvette muffler, inlet and outlet on the same side, mounted like 1/2 of the BAS system .. STEALTH !

I will need to put some stereo sound insullation on the firewall in the passenger compartment. I LOVE the whine of the Porsche fan ... It makes me want to drive faster !

Later.

Sandeep

[Sandeep]

An update ..

I've been driving the car for a while now, really happy with the way things have turned out. I have ordered some fatter idle jets and that should cure my low end backfiring.

Driving impressions .. The car drives great, easy to start, runs well and has power to lay scratch in 1st and chirp the tires in 2nd (195/65/15).

I've had it up to 90 mph on the freeway for 10 mins before I had to slow down due to traffic, head temps hit 350 deg (#3 cylinder) and oil temps hit 190 deg C. The 96 plate mesa with fan keep the oil between 170 deg and 190 deg. At startup I get 60 psi on the oil (Penzoil 10w30) and 20 psi when at idle when warmed up.

The head temps stay about 250 deg during my daily drives and when I step on it, hit 350 deg, but cool right down again when I get off the throttle.

I'll be taking it to a racetrack in the next few weeks to do 5 laps and see how the temps stay.

I NEED A CUP BRACE BADLY ... I've embarassed my self twice now... trans pops out of gear halfway through the intersection .. (once racing a WRX and once racing a Riced out Civic.)

Sandeep

[Massive Type IV]

Hmmn, amazing, thats the same temps my bus engine runs, but it has a STOCK cooling system, 9:1 CR on a 2200cc engine (stroker)

[Alex]

:sleepy:

[vujade]

Alex....LOL :D :D

[Sandeep]

Well then,

I have nothing to worry about if my engine is cooling within the correct range. Looks like I am not overcooling with my combination then.

Saving for the 100mm birals and LN heads now.

Sandeep

[Alex]

You should get your engine (IDFs) tuned and adjusted too. This is will help also.

Alex

[Sandeep]

Getting it done this weekend :D

Sandeep

[Sandeep]

I have made up some covers to fit around the Fat shroud. The area it covers is behind (in front) of the fan pulley towards the rear apron, seperating the top from the bottom of the engine. Its like the tin on a type 1 where the hoses go through to the heater boxes.

The idea here was to stop the 911 fan from sucking in air past the BAS header, kind of like preheating the air before the fan inhaled it. This worked out great because I can't get the head temp (measured at #3 spark plug) to get past 325 deg when I really drive it hard.

Also my fan stays alot cleaner now becuase it isnt sucking in dusty air from under the car .. only clean air from behind the decklid now.

Alex suggested I put a bead of silicon between the gap in the shroud and the fan so with this and these plates it looks like I save 25 deg on my engine.

Sandeep

[Racelook]

WOOOOOOOOOO Sandeep

What a nice motor you have... it's finger likking!!!!

That is a motor i want in the future....:silly: :silly:


Or will I go for a WBX with G-loader (from G-60 motor), Turbo , dumbvalves, intercooler, etc....

Just kidding..


When is it going on a dyno?? I want to now howmuch HP you have??

Grt. Wiebrand

[zen]

one of us needs to make a template available for this. since i haven't tackled it yet, how about you? :D it would be great if it was available in full size in PDF so it can be printed (on plotter at kinko's or wherever) and used to cut the material. i have some c/f piece i will be using with no room for error.

as for the sealing, i have heard jake say that he has used the seal from bus sealing tin since it has adhesive on it already (double stick tape) and leaves it as easily removable tin. it is basic foam.

[Wally]

Sandeep,
As for your 'desperately' needed cup brace, there is an easier way to tackle the unwanted movement of the engine: a rear engine mount is probably enough up to the torque of up to appr. 2,4 ltr engines. I believe on the ahnendorp site they are shown also. Its also easier to make yourself than a cup brace and if you want to buy s/th, the rear engine mount is also much cheaper.
More torque making engines might overstress the rear bodywork too much, I agree, but for your 2 liter it should do fine...(have driven with one myself for years)
Regards,
Walter

[Sandeep]

Racelook,

I found out that there is a chassis dyno about 5 mins from my house. It is an import tuning shop and I will enquire about dyno time.

Zen,

The peices fit very well ... LOTS of time making carboard templates and then figuring out how to install them. I have made them in 3 peices, will take pics on the weekend. I can trace them out full size and mail you a copy. This might be a nice option to add to the CarbonJoe decklids.

Wally,

Alex picked me up a cup brace when he was in Germany. Really nice unit.. but thanks for the suggestion.

Sandeep

[zen]

Originally posted by Sandeep
I can trace them out full size and mail you a copy. This might be a nice option to add to the CarbonJoe decklids.

Alex picked me up a cup brace when he was in Germany. Really nice unit.. but thanks for the suggestion.

Sandeep

that would be great sandeep. i will email you my address.

what brace did you get, CSP? i am shopping for one right now.

[Sandeep]

Not sure on the brand of brace but its the same one Alex has on his chassis in the Cup Brace article. Mine is a 3 bar setup, Alex has a 5 bar.

Its a beefy unit with LH & RH threads, all of the stamped steel pieces that need to be welded and nicely machined aluminum bars. The connectors that screw into the bars are beefy aluminum too ... they look like the Heigo stuff. Too nice to hide under the body .... might have to install a plexiglass parcel tray so I can see it ! :hehehe:

Sandeep

[Sandeep]

Here's the pics of the tins installed. I just made some aluminum brackets and fitted them to some existing studs around the pulley, and then attached the tins to them.

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Tins1.jpg

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Tins2.jpg

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Tins3.jpg

They fit very well. All I have to do now is either paint them or get them made out of Carbon. Not sure yet.

Email me with your address and I can mail you a paper copy of the templates. I'll just send them out regular mail.

Zen,

I have your address and will mail them out this weekend.

Steve,

Send me your address and I'll mail you out a copy aswell.

Sandeep

[zen]

looks great. really great. i won't have enough to do it in one piece though. :(

i am also considering adding a piece behind the belt vertically from the top of the sealing tin to the bottom of the fan housing. and taper it to the angle of the belt on both sides. basically covers the chimney.

[Wally]

Sandeep,
That looks very neat! Must have been a lot of filing to get it that nicely fitting.
My experience is however that some sort of seal between the tin and your shroud is necessary to avoid the tin rubbing into the softer shroud material because of movement of the engine while driving. You may look into that?
Also an exact template may not fit another car that exactly, since every car seems to be a little different around the rear inner fenders...(this is also why the BAS exhaust is a kit, rather than one piece).
BTW Where is your oil filler tube? or do you fil through a breather tube?
Greetings,
Walter

[Sandeep]

Wally,

I have just noticed some slight rubbing between the tin and shroud. I'll find something to put in there to take care of it.

Currently, I fill the oil through a breather tube, but when I get the new engine built, the NOS case I have already has the boss by the pulley opened so I can run one of the oil filler/dipstick tube combos.

Sandeep

[Sandeep]

Here's some pics of the oil cooler location and the ducting for it. Its a 96 plate mesa cooler with 180 deg oil thermostat and 180 deg fan switch and Spal fan with 30 amp relay.

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/OilCooler1.jpg

There is a square cut out under the cooler that vents the hot air outside the body. the opening is covered with a tight mesh that keep debris out.

Here is the ducting ... 4" aluminum duct with some furnace attachments that you can find at the local hardware store. I thought it added a 'race look' to the rear seat area... nice and neat.

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Ducting1.jpg

I just have to get the cooler box made out of Carbon now.

Cont in next post ...

[Sandeep]

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Ducting2.jpg

Here is a pic of the scoop (furnace ducting) under the car. Don't look at the rotted heater channel :eek:

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/Ducting3.jpg

The scoop is placed behind the torsion beam so I can still add a rear swaybar and it sits about 1 1/2" below the lower shock mount. It does not rub on speed bumps at all. I just have to install the drivers side scoop now.

I decided against the NACA ducts in the rear windows because I didn't want to cut up the windows. I want the lines of the cat to look smooth.

You can't tell from looking at the car that there is any ducting unless you look underneith the car. The whole project cost about $20 buck.

I have noticed that the fan does not come on as much now when I'm cruising. Before this mod the fan used to turn on and stay on on trips longer than 15 minutes but now it turns on and off intermittently on these trips so the duct is definately working. I'll see how it works with the second duct this weekend.

Sandeep

[ajracer]

Sandeep

Just reading through your project and the excellent job on this
type four to beetle installation. Living in Toronto area and
looking to do a similar installation of e type four engine in my
super beetle I think you could be a great wealth of information
and ideas. Looking forward to talking sometime.

Allan

[Sandeep]

Allan,

Glad you like the thread, would be great to meet you. Check out the Boxer Auto Gruppe forum for when our next meet is.

Alex is in Oakville and has a big Type 4 (Porsche cooling) going into his '52 Split, Jamie is in Brampton and has a 2056 T4 (Cali cooling conversion) going into his ghia, and I have the 914 2.0 (Fat 911 cooling) in my bug, so between the 3 of us, we've got it covered !

Looking to autocross at Great Canadian on Aug 10th. Should be cool.

Sandeep

[zen]

sandeep, did you leave your license plate in the stock location or move it up? looks to be in the stock location in the pics.

[Sandeep]

Its actually moved up 1 3/4" and the space behind the plate is cut out and the plate is on 1" spacers.

Low enough not to raise suspicion and high enough to let the 911 fan get air.

Sandeep

[zen]

sandeep, got any pics of the sealing tin around the front of the engine? curious how you handled coming up and around the tranny. i have the bell crank linkage there to deal with too though.

[Sandeep]

I don't have any tin at the front of the engine .. the rear tin goes up to the manifolds and does a good job of keeping the header heat from the 911 fan.

Do you really need front tin ? It would finish off the engine bay though :confused:

Sandeep

[zen]

yea. the idea is to totally seal off the top from the bottom. there are some challenging areas though. around the manifolds and up and ove the tranny. i had also seen a recommendation to use bus engine bay seal for the perimeter since it has an adhesive strip. i am sure several things could be substituted there though.

the aluminum should be able to bend nicely up and around the tranny. i am going to be trying to use various sizes of c/f, so i will just have to see if i have enough and the right sizes. otherwise i guess i am using aluminum too. just not sure how to get it looking right in my engine bay considering the c/f firewall and filters. i guess against the engine case it would look alright though. could always powder coat it too i guess.

http://volksport.net/images/projpics/zen19.jpg

still have some wiring to do. the CDI is in now (mounted just to right of left carb. coil and breather go in this week. then plumbing and wiring.

[Sandeep]

Looks awesome in there !

Can't wait to hear about your first drive in that beast :D

Sandeep

[zen]

the more i look at your sealing tin Sandeep and work on my template, the less i can figure out how you got those lines so tight. i have a couple hours into now and still am not happy. i never did get your templates via snail mail. i have no great solution for the front tin yet either. that's a petty challenging area. especially with bellcrank linkage.

[Bad bug]

yea. the idea is to totally seal off the top from the bottom. there are some challenging areas though. around the manifolds and up and ove the tranny. i had also seen a recommendation to use bus engine bay seal for the perimeter since it has an adhesive strip. i am sure several things could be substituted there though.

the aluminum should be able to bend nicely up and around the tranny. i am going to be trying to use various sizes of c/f, so i will just have to see if i have enough and the right sizes. otherwise i guess i am using aluminum too. just not sure how to get it looking right in my engine bay considering the c/f firewall and filters. i guess against the engine case it would look alright though. could always powder coat it too i guess.

http://volksport.net/images/projpics/zen19.jpg

still have some wiring to do. the CDI is in now (mounted just to right of left carb. coil and breather go in this week. then plumbing and wiring.
Zen is your car a daily driver. I am thinking of building a engine with a 80mm crank.

[zen]

no. weekend warrior. few to no emmenities to be a daily. daily is a 951. it has a/c and heat. :D

[Pablo]

Does anyone know of a dealer who brings these FAT shroud kits into the UK?

I want one but I am not getting any replies from FAT them fax or email, maybe I havent got the right email addy.

How much you americans paying for the kit?

Cheers
Pablo

[zen]

Does anyone know of a dealer who brings these FAT shroud kits into the UK?

I want one but I am not getting any replies from FAT them fax or email, maybe I havent got the right email addy.

How much you americans paying for the kit?

Cheers
Pablo

i think my kit was $360, but don't recall for sure. call them. it will make your life easier. they are one of those companies that don't react well via email. 714.637.2889. the box is light, but big. not sure what shipping would be.

[Sandeep]

Zen,

I made ALOT of cardboard templates before finally cutting the aluminum. I made the mounts to the engine block first (L angle aluminum brackets) and then layed the cardboard ... if it didn't fit right, I just cut a small section out and then taped in a new section. When I went to cut the aluminum, the template looked like a jigsaw puzzle :eek:

I'm working on a datalogger now ... 4 T/C's for each sparkplug hole, 1 T/C for EGT, 1 thermister for ambient temps, a hall sensor to attach to one rear axle for speed measurement, and an induction sensor attached to #1 sparkplug wire to measure rpms .. all based on a Motorola HC11 microcontroller. This should be a cool little project .. hope to get it done in time for the track ! .. a topic for another thread though :laugh:

Sandeep

[Pablo]

Thanks Zen, took your advice and rang them just, $375 + shipping not bad at all. :D
A few questions for you and Sandeep if you dont mind:

Whats the quality like of the fibreglass shroud? it looks nice thick at the edges but is it like that all over? does it fit nicely around the fan?
All the shrouds I have have seen over here are crap to say the least, I think they must be a copy off a copy off a copy....

Thanks

[zen]

i was happy with the quality. i don't have anything to compare it to since i have not looked in detail at other shrouds though. fit and finish were great. it fits snug around the heads and the fan. i had to clearance the back for the bellcrank linkage though.

[Sandeep]

I was pretty happy too .. The only drilling I had to do was drill 2 small holes at the top of the shroud so I could bolt it to the factory holes on the 911 fan ring. Great quality.

Sandeep

[Pablo]

:) Thanks guys, I m gonna order it, I better just wait till I get the catalog just incase there is anything else I want.

[zen]

thought you guys might want to see my solution to the clearance problem. i just bent a flat ali strip, painted and coated with rubber (which didn't turn out too good, but was in a hurry and figured i would make it better later). i ended up a little lower than needed, but a few more mm of height would have worked. the bottom is buffered with rubber washers. the shape allows the decklid to still be secured and locked as well.

[nbturbo]

I must have missed something-Why have you made that Ali bracket for clearance issues?I thought this thread has been all about the Porsche fan conversion and having no issues with keeping the engine cover closed like a standard one.I have used the Sharpbuilt shroud and it came with all the pieces to seal up the engine bay.

[zen]

the FAT shroud does not clear the decklid. the fan sits on top of the chimney avoiding the need for the case to be machined like with other conversions. so a plus that you can throw a running TIV in the car, but a minus that it doesn't fit under the lid.

that is what this thread originated on...options to make it fit. cutting the decklid and moving the light and plate up is one option. standoffs another. the kit does not include sealing tin as it was designed originally for offroading (where they don't care if it fits under the decklid).

[nbturbo]

I have a FAT kit as well,but used the Sharpbuilt because of the clearance issue.I just went back thru' the posts.I thought you had cut your engine cover already so couldn't work out why you needed the bracket-it was someone else who had done the cut-sorry.

[paulgrey]

I use the sharpbuilt shroud and have no clearance problems, I have to admit there has been a bit of milling done on the engine casing to accomodate the fan but it works. Here is a pic,

www.sharpbuilt.com.au

[nbturbo]

I have always told people the Sharpbuilt is a kit that fits straight into a Beetle engine bay.I forgot though that if you opt for the oil cooler in the stock position,you still need to make a small removeable panel to allow the oil cooler duct to clear the body.I have actually made mine a permanent body mod and have welded in the metal bits to hold the rubber to seal against the duct.Will need 2 seals to make it work.If I ever need to fit a standard Type 1 motor back,can just modify the rear removeable engine panel to suit.

[paulgrey]

I am running an external cooler, mounted under the front apron, It works great but I am about to lower it some more and don't want to lose it on a jutter bar somewhere. I am going to mount a mesa cooler above the gearbox with a 12V fan to keep it cool. I found a good artical on that on the palican parts site, the mod is for a 914 the same rules apply.

[zen]

I have always told people the Sharpbuilt is a kit that fits straight into a Beetle engine bay.I forgot though that if you opt for the oil cooler in the stock position,you still need to make a small removeable panel to allow the oil cooler duct to clear the body.I have actually made mine a permanent body mod and have welded in the metal bits to hold the rubber to seal against the duct.Will need 2 seals to make it work.If I ever need to fit a standard Type 1 motor back,can just modify the rear removeable engine panel to suit.

it fits straight in if you machine a junk of the case out. only good if you are building the engine from scratch. the thread was started due to sandeep's plan of taking a runnning TIV and fitting it in the car. FAT is the only 911 shroud that allows for this. the DTM is a non-911 shroud that allows for the same. all others that i am aware of require machining.

[Wally]

Hi Zen,
Well, technically speaking, the Riechert horizontal system didn't need maching either.
Unfortunately, AFAIK, the Riechert set-up can not be bought new anymore.

Greetings,
Walter

[Pablo]

I have seen this flat setup avail from Ahnendorp or a version of it, and then there is LA Performance, hes gonna be bringing one out very soon.

[Wally]

I have seen this flat setup avail from Ahnendorp or a version of it, and then there is LA Performance, hes gonna be bringing one out very soon.
Hi Pablo,
The Ahnendorp version WAS the Riechert set-up: he bought a surplus batch of them; they are all sold out now AFAIK.
I know: I bought one of those from Bernd but have sold it due to 'other plans'.

They will distribute air very evenly I suppose, but probably draw some more hp.

Take care,
Walter

[Pablo]

Hi Wally
Did your Riechert shroud kit you got from BAS come with the fan ring cos its shaped differently to the std 911 one.
Thanks
Pablo

[Wally]

Yes, the fan ring is a special casting and fits only to an old model original 911 alternator.
Very stable design.
Walter

[Ephry73]

How good is the Horizontal setup ?

[Sandeep]

Hey guys,

Lets try to keep this on topic. :)

Sandeep

[nbturbo]

Looks like that killed it????