The Apfelbeck Project (Serious T4 engineering)

[Frank]

Hi everyone,

I found website on a type 4 engine project that will probably interest all of the T4 nuts on this forum. This is called the Apfelbeck Project, some engineers are planning on making a overhead cam type 4 engine. There is a lot of details about their project along with fully animated 3D pictures of their engine heads. Check this out!! They even planned 4 test engines that will be used in application such as street and autocross racing (4WD!).


http://www.apfelbeck.nl/

[Panelfantastic]

One of those gents posts on here often, they have been teasing us with that incredible stuff for a while now! Look for posts by Wesayso.
I for one, can not wait to see a video of the test mule up and running!

[Wally]

Well, I can tell you its teasing for ourselves as well. Not everything goes as fast as you would like it. Mostly since everything has first to be thought up and than literally made from scratch.

Wesayso has posted here before on the project indeed:
http://www.germanlook.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=5124&highlight=apfelbeck

This is the basis of my non-plus-ultra engine where I hope that the Apfelbeck heads will get installed:
http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/22122004191418.jpg

Thanks for your interest Frank.
Greetings,
Walter

[Frank]

Hi Walter,

Is there a Scat forged Crank in your project, if so nice!! :D .

Surfing the net and looking at the Apfelbeck project some things caught my eye and I quite don't understand why it's done that way. It seems that each cylinder is going to have his own cylinder head, my opinion is that it would be stronger having a cylinderhead for 2 cylinders like on conventionnal flat 4 volks engines and the camshaft would suffer less from vibrations due to the running engine. It also seems that there will be a camshaft for 2 cylinderheads, one section of the camshaft will be free (outside in between the cylinderheads)? How many bearing will be necessary for the camshaft, what about its lubrification? Finally the whole OHC assembly is run by a flatbelt, as said in the guest book, drag at the rear of the car lifts up dirt and flatbelts plus dirt equals early breaking flatbelt. It would probably be more comvenient using a chain drive system instead (such used in porsche engines). It would be more compact too.

I'm not sure of that but chain and sprocket assemblies in most cases have smaller mechanical service factors than pulleys and belts.


Anyway, they are still in the early developping stages of their heads (based on a 70's design), they will probably encounter many design changes in their way

[Wally]

Hi Frank,
Yes, thats a 86mm Scat billet crank.
About the seperate heads: Look at the porsches you mention: all 911 engines have individual heads. Look at the Scat split-port heads: also an individual head per cylinder.
All design choices have been made very conciously and all pro and cons were taken into account. Trust me on this one. Don't worry about it. It will be awesome :D

Best regards,
Walter

[Frank]

Thats cool, didn't know that porsche had split cylinderheads!

[effvee]

Well by looking at the site, they have a actual head and carb body for injection. Before I allow my mouth to drull I'd like to know the price, does anyone know of a price yet????????????

[Wally]

We will have to be patient for still quite a while I'am afraid. But imho, its fun enough to see and follow the developments of the project.

The intake manifold you see is just a temporary one which was used for flow bank testing. The throttle body is a Jenvey one with IDF bolt pattern, but the actual test engine may be outfitted with a different set. We are still in test fitting stage right now.
One of these days a mock-up of the actual test engine with three heads and the full distribution will be trial fitted in a bug engine bay to see if everything runs freely.

Best regards,
Walter

[Blue Thunder]

Great stuff guys, really an inspiration!

Hopefully it can give that extra push into the reliable 100hp/liter range on a naturally aspirated engine.
Makes me wonder even more what it would do with a turbo on it :idea: :eek:
If you would like to make a 'blown' experimental engine at the time, please give me a call :D

Great project!

Grtz. Robin

[Wesayso]

Good to see we can be found "in the wild" :D

I just finished putting up a few new photos Roberto shot of the Distribution...

http://members.home.nl/r.vd.meulen/thumbs/dist18.jpg (http://www.apfelbeck.nl)

www.apfelbeck.nl (http://www.apfelbeck.nl)

And: Yes, that strap is temporary :rolleyes: and so are the cylinders by the way...

[Wesayso]

What's behind door number one ;) ....

http://members.home.nl/r.vd.meulen/engine.gif

www.apfelbeck.nl (http://www.apfelbeck.nl/)

[DORIGTT]

These people are really starting to #!$$ me off in a major way :mad:

Why do they leave us in the dark for so long about which of our firstborn we have to sacrafice to the gods of ACVW's? :bawling:

Have we asked to be tortured in this manner by loving the cars we do? I think not. :laugh:

Please...I beg of you...stop this madness and I'll allow you to use me and my Ghia as a test dummy for open track events and time trials for durability and reliability. Heck, I'll even do some Silver State Classic stuff to show the engine's ability for sustained high rpm usage. ;)

Just please don't make us wait much longer...

[Wally]

Haha, that was very funny :agree: Thanks man.
We are going as fast as we can without losing our girlfriends ;)
Don't worry, we will keep you posted.
Best regards,
Walter

[DORIGTT]

Any projected figures? I'm going to sell my tractor for a set of those heads..

[mikko k]

Here is an other style Scat Crank from my engine. And Pauter Super Pro heads. Sorry, no over head cams.

[BOBTAIL]

http://www.experiencelemans.com/index.html?target=p_240.html&lang=en-us

I saw this and thought of you :)

[Wally]

Cool, thanks!
Never knew a 4 valve aircooled head with aircooled cylinders was made :o

Regards,
Walter

[Wesayso]

Walter, you might want to take another look. It looks like watercooled heads with aircooled cylinders... ;) or was that what you were trying to type :agree:

I've seen the later total watercooled 4 valve heads with cylinders in one..

cool stuff!

[Wally]

Yep, now I see it! your right :o

[Wesayso]

Hi all,

Just wanted to anounce a small update on the Apfelbeck project with some new 3D Graphics...

http://members.home.nl/r.vd.meulen/thumbs/cg10.jpg (http://www.apfelbeck.nl/)

www.Apfelbeck.nl (http://www.apfelbeck.nl)

[Wesayso]

Another update on the Apfelbeck Project...

Some of you might have seen the first pictures of our new Cylinders on Jake's forum at the STF, but some better Pictures are available now on www.Apfelbeck.nl

http://members.home.nl/r.vd.meulen/thumbs/cil10.jpg

As well as a new look on the Home page ;)

http://members.home.nl/r.vd.meulen/thumbs/render02.jpg

Enjoy!

The Apfelbeck Team

[zen]

wow. very cool stuff. great progress. looking forward to more info as it becomes available. these are the type of innovations that will keep this hobby alive.

if i can include any pics in the GermanLook.com gallery, let me know which.

[Bad bug]

Hi Guy's
I thought these heads would bolt directly onto a type 4 engine. Will it be this way or will we have to purchase pistons,sleeves and heads as a set.

[Wally]

No, the development of the cylinders is totally separated from the heads.
Its was also (amongst other reasons) an opportunity to see how our selected aluminium casting company would produce something with as close a finnage as possible since there are limitations with sand casting.
We (and the casting company) had our worries with the cylinder mold, but the very first result is already better than I (and we) expected and that is also very good news for when the final mold for the Apfelbeck head is finished and is the reason we were very exited about the cylinder result :D

Best regards,
Walter

[cnavarro]

Great idea to do a 98mm cylinder, similar to those done back in the day by ottinger (sp?), but to encapsulate the head studs to provide additional rigidity, especially if you get the desire to put a turbo on there. The only thing I will be curious to see is how well they cool, since we actually de-encapsulated the head studs on all our 930 cylinders to provide better and more even cooling. It was only with the 993 (3.6,3.8) that they absolutely have to be encapsulated, as there just isn't enough meat to seal them off otherwise. Are you going to go one step futher and flame ring the cylinders and heads, to ensure proper sealing. One could easily use some from 3.4 cylinders and adapt them to work. They would be overkill with the registers you've used :-)

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

[Wally]

Are you going to go one step futher and flame ring the cylinders and heads, to ensure proper sealing.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

Hi Charles,
What do you mean by a 'flame ring'?
If you refer to the late 964 and 993 cylinder-head seal that is embedded into the top of the cylinder wall, then the answer is yes, but not the same ring/material will be used :D .
Also the cylinders may probably not be Nikasil coated, but with a substance of even less friction, at least as hard as nikasil and lower cost (for our 4 seperate cylinders at least). Its a bit experimental, so I/we can't say/know much more about it yet, but we love this kind of thing and it will be fun to see if it works.

Regards,
Walter

[Wesayso]

A week ago we gave a presentation of our Apfelbeck Project at an Autodesk Inventor User Group meeting. For this event we played with the new Inventor Studio to create a new movie. Needles to say that movie can be found on our site www.apfelbeck.nl (http://www.apfelbeck.nl)

A small preview:
http://members.home.nl/r.vd.meulen/thumbs/demo.gif

[cnavarro]

If you have them cast, why not use alusil and then have the pistons cast-iron plated? As far as flame ringing, there are a multitude of aftermarket designs where the cylinder and head have a ring groove machined into both and the ring actual interfaces with both surfaces. Some are an actual groove whereas other are a ledge (which leaves the top surface thicker at the failure point).

[libila]

I've been reading all about this project and I'm happy to see the consistent updates and discussions. Great work so far! I can't wait to see phase five.

I hope to see a write-up of each individual test car when the time comes, especially the 4wd autocross bug.

[oicdn]

:eek: Thank god I'm doing my motor last, looks promising and gives me time to save.

Hmm...a Turbo version, lets see how crammed you can get the engine bay :p Would also be sick as hell....

[Wesayso]

Be sure to check out our site for some new Rapid Prototyping pictures!

We are very pleased with the results :D

http://members.home.nl/r.vd.meulen/thumbs/rapid02.jpg (http://www.apfelbeck.nl/)

This step should help us with the final checks to see if everything fits and all is in place. Browsing Shoptalk found us a company who could make us a model...

That company is Approto.com for those who wonder.

We hope you are as exited as we are...

The Apfelbeck Project (http://www.apfelbeck.nl)

[Massive Type IV]

SWEET!!!!

I REALLY want a test set for the 92X111. beast PLEASE!!!!! I'll pay whatever the price is whenever you want the $$..
Thats because without a cam to worry about I can stuff a 95mm crank in that beast...

Do that math!

[Wally]

I hope you like the heads for more then just because it gives you clearance for a bigger crank.. :rolleyes:
There is 'slightly' more to it than that ;) :D

[Massive Type IV]

Sure, know all about it... BUT the bigger crank is something I REALLY want to do to put me over "The Barrier"..........

[Panelfantastic]

Uhmmm... Jake has barriers?? :eek:

[MX67]

Nice project, I hope You'll finish it soon.

[Wesayso]

I has been more than a while so an update has been placed on our Apfelbeck Site. Still no engine, Not even finalised heads but there is some real progress we thought was worth mentioning...

A teaser Picture:
http://members.home.nl/r.vd.meulen/pics/f05.jpg

More on the http://www.apfelbeck.nl/ home page.
We hope you'll enjoy seeing this phase and keep faith in us :? :wink:

At least it's a step up from our last update with that big sugarcube (lol)

[Wally]

Hey guys (or anyone that still is here :rolleyes:),

Contrary to my own expectations, the project does go on and I've put new energy into it :D
Even when most probably have gone other ways, I still very much like this project and am very motivated to follow this through.

I have contacted a local modelling company to help put these into reality, so I am now pretty confident in some castings in the next 12 months or so.

In the meantime, I'll have to settle for some of the old castings to test fit my own new test engine case, machined for a set of AA 98mm birals as I already wrecked the cast 98mm nikasils that were discussed here before :o

Still, these birals were good for 100hp per cylinder at least on the blown engine, so good enough for now ;)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49666925376_43e537ce85_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49603802212_1212be9441_b.jpg

Are there still like minded fools around who find this at all interesting?

[Bad bug]

I am still around waiting on this to be completed.

[Bad bug]

What i would love to do is have these heads with a horizontal fan on the engine.

[effvee]

Hello, I too am here, hoping to see it finish. It would also be nice to see it being sold. So Walter, can you wet our yearning with something of late? Please let the inventor know to please continue. We are looking forward :)
Walter, I have three questions for you. (1) How large of cylinder will the head fit? (2) Will the heads come heat treated and cryogenically tempered?(3) What price range will the set cost? Lastly it's been a while, when will the product be ready to sell?

Please don't take my questions the wrong way.

[Wally]

Hello, I too am here, hoping to see it finish. It would also be nice to see it being sold. So Walter, can you wet our yearning with something of late? Please let the inventor know to please continue. We are looking forward :)
Walter, I have three questions for you. (1) How large of cylinder will the head fit? (2) Will the heads come heat treated and cryogenically tempered?(3) What price range will the set cost? Lastly it's been a while, when will the product be ready to sell?

Please don't take my questions the wrong way.

I don't mate, no worries, and of course your last question was to be expected from someone anyways. I fully understand.
I had to make the decision to have them printed, cast or billet machined. After everything has been taken into account, I will have them cast after all, even though initial costs will be very high. Even (forgetting the new mold making itself) just the casting itself x4 isn't exactly cheap (probably just a bit over the current billet T4 heads now) but with casting it will be slightly more easy to see if a few more could be made. Casting might also prove beneficial to cooling properties (surface roughness, material maybe) and definately stays more in caracter with the history of these, which are cast as well of course.

Apart from the heads themselves, 2 custom camshafts need to be made as well as 12 alu ratio roller rockers (yes, the cams will be roller cams, i.e with very effective profiles and fast opening and closing possiblities). Then the whole camshaft drive system needs to be made with enclosure and all, which is the only other thing you otherwise wouldn't need.

I have no idea what it will cost me yet (as I haven't even asked for quotes on the above items yet), so I have no idea yet what complete set-up cost will be. It is therefore first and foremost a hobby project. Only if the first test engine runs and runs well, I'll start thinking and calculating what it would cost others ;-). I am very determined though! As I'am doing this 'alone' these days so to speak, so I can therefore take decisions for the project faster, but I also need more help as I am no machinist nor CAD designer. Stupid motivation is however the only way to get this done I think.

The best way is to first and formost have everything made for the first engine. Lets just wait and see if it all works as we think it could and if the newly cast heads really flow over 300 cuft/min as engine analyser says it will.

I hope (and expect) to have new castings within a year, if the ancillaries (sp?) can be ready then as well, remains to be seen, but making the other parts doesn't seem smart before 4 actual heads are ready and finish-machined to take measurements from, so the other parts will fit.

As with regular type 4 heads, the head stud locations will determine the max bore. Same with the A-heads. There is plenty of meat for larger bore and also even for slightly bigger valves then the 2x36 intakes and 1x42 exhaust I plan to use in the first set on the 98 bore.

And yes, after casting, I think the modelling/casting company asked already if I wanted the heads to be heat treated afterwards, so yes that will no doubt be done as heads get hot, no matter how many fins you use ;-)

[effvee]

Thank you.

[Bad bug]

Wally will you be doing liners as well or will you make recommendations as to which liners we can purchase.

[Wally]

Not me, but the other guys had one set of alu-nikasil cylinders made, but I have already destroyed those LOL!
So, that won't happen again and I am using ordinary cylinders myself as well.
Basically every cylinder should work when used and installed properly.
I have gotten a cheap AA biral 98mm set for the first engine ;-)

[Bad bug]

Ok because i was thinking about deutz aircooled diesel liners with these heads.