Hard cornering T4 Bug - Oiling

[MattKab]

I'm preparing to assemble a T4 for my Beetle. I can get my oil light (healthy 1.6 T1) on by cornering tight. I try not to which impeads the thrill.

I never want to lose the OP in my T4.

The T4 deep sump kits look almost useless for my application, this is a real street car (high road tax, lot's of holes in road, lots of ramps in road, etc.) Stateside Tuning offer a 2-stage dry-sump pump for a measley £99. Also CSP offer one for €153.

I have a stock P914 oil pick-up tube/windage tray/4 seals, and I've read comments about 914 drivers 'getting the light on' whilst having 'good bearings' and also reference JR's mods to the 'tray..

Anybody got any news about these 'cheap' dry-sump pumps? Cheap as opposed to the ARP(?) 3-stage pump at £300.

Are these pumps cheap Chi-nee? Is the volume poor on the high pressure side? Iron bodied?

Help! time to buy..

Matt

[NO_H2O]

You need to weld in 2 baffle plates that run parallel to the case seam. Weld them to the oil pick-up, one on each side of the pick-up to block the path from one side to the other. Leave a small gap at each end.

[Sandeep]

MattKab,

I'm in the same boat as you .. I can get my oil light to go on by just braking really hard ... I'm looking at a 2 stage pump as well, just waiting for Raby to finish testing his version before i commit.

You usually pay for quality is what I hear ... the CB pump is not supposed to have an adequete (sp?) suction stage but I have nothing but hearsay to back that up.

Good luck in your search though

Sandeep

[MattKab]

Thanks Sandeep, I now believe it is a CB pump. Assuming they're made to the same tolerances as the wet-sump pumps, the issue is the suction side losing it's prime?...

Adding paddles to the pick-up tube is a good suggestion, more to think about..

Cheers,

Matt

[NO_H2O]

I saw the weld in baffle done on Jakes 914 race engine this week when I was up there. It was going together as we were doing exhaust system testing on the new A-1 header, BAS, Turbo Thomas and Tangerine.

[judgie]

hello mate
dont think cb make that pump any more,i'm running a 3 stage pump from stateside and it's fooking brillent.speak to james at stateside and see what hae says.
cheers rob

[MattKab]

Hi Rob, will you be taking your Bug to Dubfreeze?

I was talking to JC at Bug Jam lastyear, He had a 3-stage on the Stateside stall. It was sold, and not a second later, the new owner arrived to pick it up. He was not pleased to see his pump with no box!

I do think I need a dry-sump.

Matt

[judgie]

hello mate
should be going to dubfreez but not shaw in what yet,my engine is in bit's after a valve head falling of!waiting for pistons to come back from the machine shop.so might be going in the wizard.
cheers rob

[Wally]

Be sure to think about clearence issues with headers when you buy a dry sump pump for the type 4. 3-stage seems almost impossible to me with a 21153 BAS header for example.
Just a thought.

Regards,
Walter

[justdubbin]

I'm preparing to assemble a T4 for my Beetle. I can get my oil light (healthy 1.6 T1) on by cornering tight. I try not to which impeads the thrill.

I never want to lose the OP in my T4.

The T4 deep sump kits look almost useless for my application, this is a real street car (high road tax, lot's of holes in road, lots of ramps in road, etc.)

Matt


Matt what are you trying to say about our delightful British roads????
Don't you think there up to scratch :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[MattKab]

Yes are roads are bad. The 'tram-lining' I suffer in lane1 and sometimes lane2 re-enforces my need for a T4. I need to cruise with the new cars without overbeasting my T1.

...And the pot holed roads will not get resurfaced because of the bloody speed ramps. The wishbone/balljoint/shock absorber/exhaust industry is booming. The ministry is contemplating ripping them up....How odd is that?

Imagine stubbing a deep-sump on one of those square, ambulance friendly ramps? Ouch..

On the other hand there is plenty of open road just 40mins from ANYWHERE in the Uk, tho' it's easy to forget.

Only tonight I first test fitted my T4 ( :) ), just the 'case and #1/#2 'head. I was a little surprised just how much longer the T4 is. The CB pump just seemed to good to be true. Thanks for putting me off :D

My choice of crank pulley will permit a dry-sump pump. Fan speed will be 92% of T1 with a flat belt.

Matt

[Chris Percival]

Whats your rear ride height? I ran a deep sump on my T1 engine, which eliminated any oil pickup issues I had on the track. I plan on using a deep sump on my T4 for the same reason, once its run in.. A dry sump pump won't clear my current exhaust, or my pully for that matter...

PS. When are you planning on doing the Nurburgring? Thats an aim for me too, be cool to go together?

[MattKab]

Hi Chris,

My rear is down about 40mm.

I want a 2-stage pump I think...

Maybe summer '06 we can storm the 'ring? I need my engine and trans ready beforehand. I must be able to bury GTi's. I want to get round in less than 10mins :cool:

Matt

[Chris Percival]

Sounds good! Might be able to get a couple more dubs to join us.. How cool would that be.. :)

[judgie]

iam up for the ring.
cheers rob

[Wally]

Maybe summer '06 we can storm the 'ring? I need my engine and trans ready beforehand. I must be able to bury GTi's. I want to get round in less than 10mins :cool:

Matt
Excellent; I would really like to do that as well.
The Nurburgring in under 10 minutes is kinda fast I thought. Jeremy Clarkson had to practice 2 days to do it in under 10 min and that was in the newest 200hp Jag...
His lady (!) instructor did it in her first lap with his car: 9:37 or s/th I believe :laugh: and it was a diesel... :eek:

[Chris Percival]

Yeah, Sabine, what a chic! :)

[Wally]

Yeah, Sabine, what a chic! :)
I understand it you saw that Top gear episode too ;) :D

[Chris Percival]

Of course.. :)

[NO_H2O]

I wish we could see Top Gear over here. Speed TV is now showing 5th Gear and I love that show.

[Sandeep]

I get BBC World on digital cable in Toronto, sure enough I saw my first segment of Top Gear ... LOVED the comparison between the Bobsled and the Mitsu Evo ... who can get down the side of a mountain fastest ... the Evo lost by a second ... WOW.


Back on topic ... I've priced a few setups now ... Autocraft 2 stage - 495 USD, CB DS pump - 99 USD, CSP DS pump - 169 USD.

I've heard the CB pump does not have a big enough scavange stage, and oil could still accumulate in the case/heads ... is this a big deal though ?

The idea would be a constant supply of oil to the engine during hard cornering/acceleration/deceleration and I'm sure the CB pump can handle this as the oil supply is coming from the DS tank (12 qt ?) ... correct ?

I was considering an accusump but the last thing I need on the track is the accusump discharging 3 qts into the engine and then taking time to recover the oil, just as the next turn approaches :eek:

Thoughts ?

Sandeep

[Wally]

For real track use, I'd say dry sump always.
Be carefull when you buy a type 1 pump set-up 'as is', because I think that the oil passages are not lined up correctly for a type 4 case.
Also cam wheel clearence is a concern if you do not have the stock cam or a Schleicher cam where the cam gear is riveted. It still may need clearence anyway with some oil pumps.

Also I think its best to use alu quality pumps because of thermal expansion in relation to oil leaks.
Do you know what make the CB and CSP set-ups are?

Regards,
Walter

[Richie]

Hello,

Totally OT first: I love TopGear, it's an awsome show. And, I've seen the bobsled vs Evo comparison three times already and still can't get enough because I went down that track in a bobsled!!! :agree: :D Went up there in a damp mini-van though! :bawling:

Back on topic, the scavenge-side off a dry-sump pump should be at least twice the size off the pressure-side. So, 2:1 at least!

Cheers,
Richard

[Sandeep]

I have an email in to CSP-USA about the pump specifics .. you can get 3 types of pumps ... 1 for a 3 bolt gear (T1), 1 for a 4 bolt gear (T1) and 1 for a T4.

I agree on the Alu composition of the pump vs iron for sealing.

When I get the info back, I may choose the CSP T4 pump because I just want a constant oil supply for the engine .... not really concerned now that the heads/case may accumulate oil. I'll judge its performance this year and if unsatisfactory, there is always the Autocraft unit for next winters project ! :D

Sandeep

[MattKab]

So that's atleast 4 of us trying make an impression on Sabine, in Beetles :laugh: :laugh:

As of now, the Nurburgring is officially excempt from ever being 'Off Topic' ;)

10mins is pretty quick Wally, If I expected to be much slower I don't think it's a good idea to be out there.... So no busses :p I hope to get some real track experience by going along with Chris to a UK circuit or two. I live near Oulton Park and a mate owes me a track day (for helping with a T4 top-end rebuild/carb conversion I did on a Westy last summer) He is building a BTCC styled Rover 820turbo..

The last CB pump I fitted to a T1 had both the 'CB' and 'Shadek' logo's in the casting. It appeared to be of a very high quality. It was the slightly higher price of the D-S pump on the CSP site that got me wondering about it's origins. I'm up for using ceramic lifters, I like the stock style of the Schleicher cam gears. I guess all 3 may fit together, but..

I've not used a Melling style pump in the last 13years for the reasons mentioned.

'Looking forward to what info Sandeep's quest turns up.

I would like to fit an oil pre-heater into a D-S tank (or possibly in-line) to reduce cold wear if possible. I suppose this is still an option for a wet-sump.

I'm off now, to watch the RUF 911CTR 'Yellowbird' Faszination On The Nurburgring Mpeg (again!)

Matt

[Chris Percival]

I'm off now, to watch the RUF 911CTR 'Yellowbird' Faszination On The Nurburgring Mpeg (again!)

Thats a great vid that, start memorising the corners! :)

[MattKab]

I'll try to watch it daily for 18months :)

The Nordschleife from above (http://213.239.207.198/nuerburgring.de/typo3temp/b8c43c8507.jpg)

Maybe 20mins is more realistic? And 10mins the ultimate goal. How does that sound? Surely there has been hundreds of laps by 1303? I've nothing to compare with.. Has Remelle Ever had a go?

I regret not opting for German language at the age of 13 :( Searching for lap times only turns up sub 9sec cars.

It only costs €2 to go round by Bus so busses are more than welcome :)

A 5 lap ticket costs €60 (special offer 2005) I better go and do some work on my case...

Matt

[jimby]

1. hi
2. im going to have to make a windage tray for my T4, ill take some photos
3. there are two race days in the SEMSEC series where the Aircooled cup cars are competing that have a track session attached 2nd May and 13th August at Lydden Hill
check out www.semsec.org :) and http://www.semsec.org.uk/trackdays.html

and id love to do the ring :D

[MattKab]

By Lydden, I'm halfway to the ring.. :D

Jimby, I can sort a pic of the 914 windage tray, If that helps you..

I could head to Brands' for a watch, 2nd April

Matt

[jimby]

yes please, you can email it to jimby@hotmail.com

brands is the same weekend as the volksworld show, to be honest ill be hoping to race that weekend but ive still got a lot to do. :)

[Sandeep]

Ok,

Got some info back from CB and CSP-USA as well as Autocraft.

Autocraft pump - 495 USD, Best system you can get, proper 2 stage pump. You'll need alot of fancy plumbing to make this one work.

CB - 99 USD, Aluminum bodied 30mm pump for T1, needs to be modified to work with a T4, one inlet one outlet, uses stock pickup tube

CSP-USA 169 USD, Aluminum bodied 26mm pump for T4, one inlet one outlet, uses stock pickup tube. Scavenging side is larger than pressure side but not 2:1.

I'm placing my order for the CSP pump and DS tank right now :D Hope to have it by the end of the month.

Sandeep

[MattKab]

That's excellent reporting Sandeep. Thanks. Let us know what it needs for a Type4 application.

I forgot about this thread, Jimby I'll sort some pics of the windage tray this evening.

Matt