what would the hp be?

[Veedub]

Ok, I have 2 motors, one will go in the bug when its done and stay stock, the second motor will be built up. I dont want a 2L but I want a 1776,1835 or a 1915, or maybe a 1641cc.I want it to be pretty quick but still be reliable.My budget is maybe 4grand or whatever I save up to till the time I'm ready to tear my other motor down.I found a website that shows all the stock specs on the bugs.The motor in my bug(or will be in my bug stock has 65bhp and 86lbs torque, and weighs 1786lbs stock.The other motor is out of a 74 and has 46hp and 89lbs of torque.
I was thinking about a combo, here is one I was thinking of, tell me what you think?This is for the future refference so I know what I want and to be ready, if you know what I mean?

the bore- 87mm,90.5mm,92mm, or 94mm AA pistons and cylinders (they ok?)
Eagle Racing cam-Adv. Duration .276", Duration @.050"-.228", Lift @ cam- .380" Lift w/ 1.1:1 rockers-.417"
Straight cut cam (Would it do anything?)
Super Stock Rhino Rocker arm kit 1.1:1
Dual 34mm ICTs or Dual 40mm Kadrons or Weber 40 IDF's
044 Super Mag CNC round port heads
Springloaded pushrods
Lightened 200mm flywheel
Pertronix Billet Distributor
Pertronix 8mm plug wires
Pertronix black coil w/ 45000 volts
Ceramic coated merged header with a glasspack

I am aware the pertronic ignition system does not increase hp but thats part of the setup
What you guys think it would have for hp?If its a high reving motor that would be awesome IMO, i like cars that rev high, AND DONT TELL ME TO GET A HONDA for saying that :laugh:

[EvilAngel]

Just my opinion, as i'm planning a daily driver yet a bit powerful type 1 engine for my GL project

If you want to have reliable pistons, you can only choose between 90.5 and 94. This is because their cylinder wall thickness is the same as stock. The others are thinner. If you want torque, you must go with a stroker, i think a 78mm crank would be a good option, since no major modding to the crankcase is required, only some clearancing. AA are chinese, but some say they're true forged, unlike mahle. About the camshaft I'd go with an engle 120 or equivalent, with 1.1 rockers. If you've got more buck, you can get an fk-8 and a set of 1.4 rockers. 90.5 x 78mm, that would make it more reliable because of the lesser stress on the valvetrain. 044 P&P heads are perfect, maybe with 45 x 35.5 valves, depending on your engine displacement.
The straight cut gears only add noise, which some guys seem to like. Someone said once at thesamba that it was like adding baseball cards to your bike's spokes. The lighter flywheel is a must. As for the carbs, i'd go for 44 idf webers for anything above 1776cc, don't get the ict's unless you are not increasing the displacement very much. Whatever ignition you like, as long as it's pointless, and a proper sized header, depending on your heads' flow. You might also need an external cooler to increase the engine's lifespan, in case you use big displacement or a high compression ratio.
BTW revving a vw makes it lose useful life, so it loses reliability in that sense. That's why I'd go with a stroker.
I'm planning my 2007cc, btw. Oh, and you should read the tech articles on aircooled.net for more info.

[wrenchnride247]

Yep, what Evil said... 2007cc (90.5 x 78) is a very good combo. Good torque and longlife... perfect combo. ;)

[oasis]

I want a 1776,1835 or a 1915, or maybe a 1641cc.I want it to be pretty quick but still be reliable.My budget is maybe 4grand. ... What you guys think it would have for hp?If its a high reving motor that would be awesome IMO, i like cars that rev high
Of these four sizes, the only two that got a reasonably universal thumbs up during my investigation of Type I engines were the 1776 and 1915. I highlighted these portions of the EvilAngel's post below because I think it bears repeating -- especially since you brought up reliability.

BTW, reliability is easy to understand but hard to define. Everyone's definition and threshold will be different.

If you want to have reliable pistons, you can only choose between 90.5 and 94. This is because their cylinder wall thickness is the same as stock. ... BTW revving a vw makes it lose useful life, so it loses reliability in that sense.

I am not expert enough to comment on any other details and won't pretend to be.

I will say horsepower and torque are fleeting numbers and can vary within the same hardware selection. Another aspect on horsepower and torque that warrants emphasizing is these numbers will vary with the same exact engine and combo depending on where it is measured.

For example, the original engine in my '71 was as stock as stock can be. The owner's manual lists it as being 60 bhp at 4400 rpm and 81.7 ft-lbs. at 3000 rpm. It was measured on the dyno during November 2005 at 44.5 hp at 4200 rpm and 69.2 ft-lbs. at 2700 rpm.

If one of the experts chime in with a guesstimate or a range with your hypothetical hp, they are more likely to spout a dyno number as the experts I have listened to have access to, have had access to, or own a dyno.

[Veedub]

WEll guys what I meant for it being reliable is because it will be my daily driver. My Sentra is going to my brother so the bug has to be reliable.I dont want to have to replace something every week :laugh: I never read anything on other forums about a 2007cc, are they a nice motor when built up nice?This motor wont be touched until my bugs body is done and its up and running so I got plenty of time.Im just wanting ideas so I'll know ahead of time what I want you know what I mean?
I cant find any heads with the 45x35.5 valves but I seen heads with 42x37.5 valves, dual rev springs, chromoly retainers s/s sure grips and whatever bore I want.I also read the tech articles on aircooled.net, mostly the one on basic bolt ons for a 1600cc.

[EvilAngel]

I am not expert enough to comment on any other details and won't pretend to be.

Well neither am I, but since I am also in the quest for the perfect combo for my daily driver (and sometimes also sole source of transportation) I have read a lot recently about VERY reliable combos and with a decent power output.
Remember the bug is a very light car compared to others, so even with lower HP numbers you can outrun them. According to John Connoly from aircooled.net, with about 140 HP you can outrun a mustang, and above 180 you can beat a vette :eek:
Now, regarding piston size reliability, the reason for this is that you want your cylinder walls to be as tick as stock. If you use thinner walls, heat will warp them.
As for revving the engine. You can do it, however, too high rpm means a lot of friction, and a lot of wear, therefore, less useful life. Remember that the stock bug has a redline at abou 4500 rpm (at least a mex-spec bug does). You can get a higher redline by changing some components, such as the crank, the cam, connecting rods, etc, but then, ther'es wear. That's exactly why I chose a stroker. Higer power at lower RPM's, and even better, more torque in the lowrange! All these equal longer life under similar conditions

Edit: Oh and I forgot to say, I am also adding an extra oil cooler, since the extra displacement will generate more heat, and more heat = less life.

[Bogara_ZO]

If you want to have reliable pistons, you can only choose between 90.5 and 94. This is because their cylinder wall thickness is the same as stock. The others are thinner.

AA are chinese, but some say they're true forged, unlike mahle.

1.: is it the same with type4 too?? I'm hesitating between 94 and 96..

2:: AA products are better than mahle???? it's new for me...really??

[EvilAngel]

Well I dont'n know if the'yre better or not. Several websites have reported that new mahle piston sets are actually cast and not forged (for example, cip1.com and aircooled.net, under hte product description). However, Mahle is doubtless a very high quality brand when it comes to aircooled pistons.

According to cip1, the AA are true forged, however they're made in China

Here you can see for yourselves:
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5167
http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=EPS0001&cartid=0118200773348335
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5204

Note that AA are about 50 bucks cheaper. You can blame that on branding, or on quality...

I really don't know about type 4 cylinder walls, but why don't you make a search on the forums on thesamba? You might find very good T4 combos in there.

[Veedub]

Aircooled.net sales a rebuild kit.
http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=ENG0001&cartid=0123200766155208
everything needed except heads,case(i have a case) to build a 2007cc, which is what you guys recomended.Would that kit be a good one to buy, or would I be better off buying it all separate, well when I'm ready I mean:laugh:
And heads, but what would be a streetable head
http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=EHD0012&cartid=0123200766155208
And a cam I would want a wicked idle...dont ask, I seen a video of a bug sounded like a 2 stroke jackhammer lol I liked that sound.

[EvilAngel]

Veedub, there's another article there describin the pros and cons of different cylinder and crank setups, as well as other "internal" mods. Check http://aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/t1hpeng.htm
And i also want my engine to be as reliable as possible, and i've read that the 2007cc combo is very reliable if properly cooled (i'm planning on an external oil cooler, and running 8.5:1 CR)

Sorry I meant 40x35.5 valves, and for what I've read Steve Tims makes a set of heads that's both excellent in performance and reliability. You will need all those valvetrain stuff (dual springs etc) for the hot camshaft, for reliability and to prevent valve float at high RPM.
It seems to me that you were looking at cb's heads, their 044 castings are said to be very reliable. Remember that they also must be ported and polished, there's no point on using big valves on a stock port head, if you can get a p&p'd one.

[EvilAngel]

Well I've been considering the exact same kit. As for the price, is depends really on who you buy from. I've read that scat's lifters are not among the best, but their other parts are a good choice. The main con I see on this kit is that you can't get specific parts, you are stuck with what scat gives in it's kit. So, if I want an FK cam, i'd have to buy it separate, the same with 1.4 rockers, etc. You can't fine-tune it.

According to AC.net, their level 2 heads are streetable. They're 043 castings, so they are more reliable than using stock 040 or 041.

A loud sound can be achieved with the cam gears, usig straight cut. I dont think an engine being that loud (as a jackhammer) on IDLE would be streetable (or street legal anyway :D )

[Veedub]

A loud sound can be achieved with the cam gears, usig straight cut. I dont think an engine being that loud (as a jackhammer) on IDLE would be streetable (or street legal anyway :D )

:laugh: Good point.
I read on the link you gave me there streetable heads are Level 5 and Level 3, theres no level 2 by the way;)
I didnt notice it was a Scat kit..well they got a bugpack kit but they dont come with all the parts the scat kit has and there the same prices, weird.
I also seen a kit advertized in the HVW magazine that sales for around 1200 bucks but its for any size that you want, I think 800 was the starting price though.

[EvilAngel]

Well, you're right about the heads.. my bad :D

Bugpack tends to be more expensive than scat in most cases, don't know why thoug. I mentioned I was considering the volkstroker kit but I'm not a fan of buying kits now, ever since i discovered serrano's. There I can buy whatever parts i want for the price of a Kit. Maybe he even sells kits, but i haven't asked.

It's a store that sells parts via thesamba.com classifieds. They sell good quality parts at extremely low prices. However, the main advantage from aircooled.net is the excellent support that John Conolly offers, from what i've read.
Check this link, it's a search on thesamba that shows serrano's articles.
HERE (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?submit=yes&keywords=&type=text&stype=all&username=serrano&yearfrom=&yearto=&model%5B%5D=&section%5B%5D=&wanted=show&zip=&zipdist=0&state%5B%5D=&usaregion=&country=&sort=date&sort_order=DESC&submitButton=Search)

[Bogara_ZO]

I really don't know about type 4 cylinder walls, but why don't you make a search on the forums on thesamba? You might find very good T4 combos in there.

well, thanks a lot. Meanwhile I made a quick search, and nearly everybody prefered the AA-1s against the Mahle... good to know. At the moment I'm just looking for some infos. As I have written elsewhere, a set of AA pistons was offered to me. they are 96mm, my only problem is with the price...it's quite expensive. But at least it's in my country, I can see it don't have to wasting time and be frightened about shipping etc.. I have serious doubt with buying things from internet... so it would be much more simple to me. (howewer there are lot of good quality products in the States on ridiculous prices, so maybe I should risk it.:confused: )
thnx for the useful links!

[Veedub]

Anybody know of any other sites that sells full engine rebuild kits like aircooled.net does? But, in that same range of 1200.00 or close?

[EvilAngel]

check www.cip1.com they have several kits there

[Veedub]

I know you guys recommended a 2007cc, which is cool :D and I know about the issues with slip in pistons, but my foots not heavy, a stroker would give me a heavy foot though :laugh:So I was wondering if a 1641 or 1680cc would be a reliable motor with balls with the right heads and setup.
I was reading about the head in Aircooled.net and was thinking about there Level 5 heads with a cam and rockers combined to get a .450-.500 lift and was wondering what you guys thought. I know its a small motor but if it reved to like 6k would it be ok?I just always have liked little motors with a big bite, I guess its because I'm used to seeing the guys my age around in my area with small motors with nice takeoff.I dont want it for racing, just something that can get up and go when I need it. :D

forgot to mention heres the kit I was looking at http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5000%2D KT

[EvilAngel]

Well you certainly can have a lil' engine that bites, but there goes reliability. You won't get 150k miles if you rev it to 6k rpm often. Why don't you consider a 1776 (90.5 x 69). It's relatively small, 1.8, and it sure can bite at 6.5k rpm with proper heads.
I'd say that if you must rev it better go with 1776. Same thickness as stock, unlike slip-ins.
Just what i think
... And my foot IS heavy :) with my 100% stock 1584cc i get about 20 mpg at best

[Veedub]

Well you certainly can have a lil' engine that bites, but there goes reliability. You won't get 150k miles if you rev it to 6k rpm often. Why don't you consider a 1776 (90.5 x 69). It's relatively small, 1.8, and it sure can bite at 6.5k rpm with proper heads.
I'd say that if you must rev it better go with 1776. Same thickness as stock, unlike slip-ins.
Just what i think
... And my foot IS heavy :) with my 100% stock 1584cc i get about 20 mpg at best

well what I mean by reving to 6k, is that be the rev line, im not gonna rev it up to 6k :eek: maybe rev to 5k and shift..

[oasis]

If reliability is a component, the 1776 is the direction to go. I have heard several times from those I would consider experts that is what Volkswagen should have done themselves as the next step with the Type I engine.

(I don't think your distinction of 5k rpm shifts changes the answer any.)

[Veedub]

I know that the 1776cc is a good motor, but the 1641cc and 1680cc was just a thought.When I do start on the other motor I got, I might just buy a full rebuild kit that increases displacement that has everything.I have a case and Id just buy the heads last. That way I can buy the best heads I can afford.I would have done the same with the 1641cc or 1680cc.Just wondering about the 1641cc, the heads, Id want to find the 85.5 bore heads right, in performance wise, right?

[EvilAngel]

Oasis, I agree with you, but I'd say that a PROPERLY COOLED 2007cc would be as reliable,or at least very close, to a 1776, and being a stroker and therefore having more torque, would be funnier to drive

Veedub, the problem is that you just wouldn' get the same reliabiliy with slip-ins

[oasis]

When I was investigating engines for me, not one person mentioned a 2007cc Type I -- good or bad. If I had gone with a Type I instead of my 2056cc Type IV, I probably would have leaned towards a 2110cc.

The funny thing is after I described my joyful return with my new engine, a Type I enthusiast deadpanned that it sounded like a 2007cc. That was the first time I had heard of a 2007cc. It started a whole firestorm of opinions flying back and forth about Type I versus Type IV.

Anyway, I went through a lot of effort in investigating the different choices. I took a lot of notes. I mentioned the 1776cc and the 1915cc because those were my findings as opposed to my opinion. As I said in an earlier post, I am not an expert and I don't play one on the Internet.

I am sure a 2007cc would be funner than a 1776cc. Maybe funnier, too. :p

[Veedub]

Yeah I see what you guys are saying about the 2007cc and 1776cc.This is the first I've heard of a 2007cc too(well when you first mentioned it anyway) my problem with the strokers is well I am going to be using the stock 1600cc to learn to drive(i cant drive a manual) Thats why I was saying the motor would be a side project.It has to be reliable but then again, I have 2 motors.Build one as a 1641cc and put it in the bug then the other Im learning with since its and AE case, get serious on the power with that one, maybe?I was told the AE case is what everyone tries to find and build up. The other motor is a california AH case, with all the emission b.s. on it which is coming off.I could take that motor, put "slip ins" in it, dual kadrons, so-cal imports Outlaw big valve heads W110 cam, and header an muffler, just for a short time, then when that motors done and in the bug, take the AE case and build a 2007cc with the works, if you know what I mean.
Id use the AH case to learn to drive the manual with but it needs to be rebuilt, the AE case is altogether, was rebuilt professionally, and is together.It just needs pushrods and a tuneup and the 34pic to be rebuilt.

[EvilAngel]

When I was investigating engines for me, not one person mentioned a 2007cc Type I -- good or bad. If I had gone with a Type I instead of my 2056cc Type IV, I probably would have leaned towards a 2110cc.

The funny thing is after I described my joyful return with my new engine, a Type I enthusiast deadpanned that it sounded like a 2007cc. That was the first time I had heard of a 2007cc. It started a whole firestorm of opinions flying back and forth about Type I versus Type IV.

Anyway, I went through a lot of effort in investigating the different choices. I took a lot of notes. I mentioned the 1776cc and the 1915cc because those were my findings as opposed to my opinion. As I said in an earlier post, I am not an expert and I don't play one on the Internet.

I am sure a 2007cc would be funner than a 1776cc. Maybe funnier, too. :p

Well I am no expert either, but i have read many things about this combo on thesamba, and several people claim that's it's a very good street engine.

And as you can see, english isn't my main language :D

Veedub: I find your plan excellent

Now some links, they're abou pros and cons of 2007 vs 1776
1 (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=213338&highlight=2007cc), 2 (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=206990&highlight=2007cc), 3 (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=197512&highlight=2007cc), 4 (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=164074&highlight=2007cc), 5 (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109436&highlight=2007cc)

[Veedub]

I thought it was a good idea too.
The 1600cc will be stock.
The other I was thinking of buying the 1641cc rebuild kit i showed you in a previous post. So-Cal Imports sales a head called the Outlaw head, with 40x35.5 valves, high rev springs ,chromoly retainers and s/s sure grip, last I checked they cost 189.95 standard bore.A cam comes in the rebuild kit which is cool. Carberators Id probably just run dual 35mm solex carbs.Then for the one going in my car now ....maybe a 2007cc or whatever project.
I could always build a 1641cc and turbocharge it:laugh: just playing

Edit: the rebuild kit comes with 85.5,87, or 88mm pistons'
new stock OEM connecting rods,I-beam con rods, or H beam con rods
new stock 69mm crank,scat 69mm cast crank, or 69mm 4140 forged c/w crank
8 x stock replacement cam lifters/followers,8 x 28mm HD Lube-a-lobe followers/lifters, 8 x 30mm HD cam lifters/followers, or 8 x 30mm HD lube-a-lobe followers/lifters
Stock dished gear 1971-1979 camshaft w/gear attached, Engle W100 camshaft W/O gear, Engle W110 camshaft W/O gear, or Engle W120 camshaft W/O gear
Bolt-on cam gear for Hi-Per. cams (optional)

[EvilAngel]

Turbo is not a bad idea. However, it's expensive and requires pretty much everything forged if you want reliability

[Veedub]

Yeah I see that its expensive, N/A is cheaper.

[vujade]

I know that the 1776cc is a good motor, but the 1641cc and 1680cc was just a thought.When I do start on the other motor I got, I might just buy a full rebuild kit that increases displacement that has everything.I have a case and Id just buy the heads last. That way I can buy the best heads I can afford.I would have done the same with the 1641cc or 1680cc.Just wondering about the 1641cc, the heads, Id want to find the 85.5 bore heads right, in performance wise, right?


A 1776 or a 1914 are going to be a more reliable motor then a 1641 or 1679
with slip in pistons. Both 1776 & 1914 have thicker wall pistons then the
other two.

[oasis]

And as you can see, english isn't my main language

Your English is much more goodly than my German, Spanish, or French. :D

I just enjoyed the typo creating a new word and a new meaning, that's all. :o

[EvilAngel]

Vujade: I agree with you, an did noted that before, but since veedub is goind to build the big engine relatively soon I didn't mention it
Oasis: Well thanks, BTW my German and French knowledge is very close to nothing, mostly lyrics from Rammstein and Enigma

[Veedub]

I been looking at kits on the cip1 website and found these kits what you guys think?
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C15%2D2027%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C15%2D2095%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C15%2D2110%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C15%2D2161%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C15%2D2161%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C15%2D2187%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C15%2D2234%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C15%2D2275%2D1

Would these kits be worth it or would they most likely be cheap stuff?

[EvilAngel]

Well those are good if youre biulding an engine form scrap, but since you already have the case, you will be spending unnecesarily. Plus, being a racing kit, i keep my doubts about reliability

[Veedub]

yeah good point, I think its just a longblock anyways and for only racing too.

I think I basically got my plans (ahead of time so I know what I want to do in advance) I want to build a 1776cc thats reliable but still able to play, you know ;) Heres what I found so far, that I will save up for.You can add any recomendations if you like :D
Anyways...
Scat Pro Street Forged 1.25:1 rockers- 157.45 (to cheap?)
Engle W110 cam with a .430" lift and .284" duration- 64.95
Billet Steel Straight Cut cam- 73.45
Super Big Bore Kit 90.5mm p&c's forged- 199.95
4140 Forged Chromoly 69mm crank- 179.95
Pertronix Distributor Ignitor II w/ non vac- 169.95
Flamethrower II Coil - 37.95
Pertronix 8.0mm plug wires- 29.95

Im not sure what carbs, exhaust, or heads Id want to use though, any ideas?

[EvilAngel]

Well i think you have there a very nice setup. Overengineered, for added reliability. About the carbs, i have read several times that the best option are dual weber idf, perhaps with that setup you should go with 40's or at mos 44's. Dells and Kads are another option, and cheaper too. The exhaust will depend on the heads, I'd stay with 044s, ported and polished with big valves, say, 40 x 35.5. This would work with a 1 1/2 header. Just remember to get a header with a long collector (4'') and a decent sounding muffler.

Oh and by the way now i can't decide between the 2007 and the 1776 for my bug...
PS: have you upgraded the brakes already?

[Veedub]

Well i think you have there a very nice setup. Overengineered, for added reliability. About the carbs, i have read several times that the best option are dual weber idf, perhaps with that setup you should go with 40's or at mos 44's. Dells and Kads are another option, and cheaper too. The exhaust will depend on the heads, I'd stay with 044s, ported and polished with big valves, say, 40 x 35.5. This would work with a 1 1/2 header. Just remember to get a header with a long collector (4'') and a decent sounding muffler.

Oh and by the way now i can't decide between the 2007 and the 1776 for my bug...
PS: have you upgraded the brakes already?

lol you cant decide between a 1776 or a 2007 now?:laugh: thats funny.And no I havent got my brakes yet, when incomtax comes im going to buy everything for my bug that i need to get it up and running on the road then start on the motor as a side project.the brakes I am going to buy just a front disc brake kit w/ drop spindles.

About the heads i was thinking of maybe the Level 5's in aircooled.net, what you think?Would that be ok with the setup i want?Also i was thinking the same as you with the carbs but i wasnt sure.


p.s. to get my bug up and roadworthy, i just need to buy the window pieces i need, found a local shop that selld them, undercoating for floor along with sound deadener, and put my interior in an then put my stock motor in, and buy a rebuild kit fpr my stock carb.by the way, i decided on my wheels, go to the other thread and tell me what you think, i was told it was French look, whatever that is

[EvilAngel]

Well, yes and i can't decide mainly for budget issues. I have a fixed budget for this bug, about 6k, and i also have to pay a lot for shipping to Mexico.
Id say those heads are good, theyre the hi-po street version

[Veedub]

Well, yes and i can't decide mainly for budget issues. I have a fixed budget for this bug, about 6k, and i also have to pay a lot for shipping to Mexico.
Id say those heads are good, theyre the hi-po street version

Oh yeah the cost of shipping to Mexico has to be a pita man.You guys dont got local shops there?Here in Florida I have only found 2 shops but there close by and not far from me.
Would those heads hurt the reliability at all, if you know?

Just so you know, the combo of stuff I listed above, was about 960.00, I totaled it up last night so I might be off a little on the total of th price, maybe you can use that combo to but with a bigger crank?

[Astromic]

well, i've read on many forums and articles that 1776 is the best non-stocker(and non-stroker) combo, and the 2007 is the best "stroker" combo, both for reliability more than power but ofcourse give a pleasent power compared to stock engine.
i'm now on building a 1776, and if i was in a country like usa or germany i would have picked the 2007, because there's no machine shop i know here will do the clearencing/matching job right, and my second reason is the mpg.
for the cases i know that AE-AD-AS is a good choices for any project, i perefere later AS because of the better alloy, just make sure they are standard cut.
my engine specs is still on papers and my head only, and i might take a long time planning, i just hope it will worth it :rolleyes:

this is the main specs so far:
Case: used type1 AS-21
Bore X Sroke: 90.5mmX69mm, 1776cc
Pistons: Mahle 90.5(thick walls), with total seal and teflon locks
Crankshaft: 69mm Forged & C/W
Heads: Stock DP 35X32, single HD springs, or CB 044 40x35 (money talks)
Rockers: HD 1:1.1, & swivle foot adjusters
C/R: 7.7:1 to 8.2:1
Intake: FI MegaSquirt-II V3, controling 4 injectors
Ignition: EDIS driven by MS
Cam: Engle W-110 or Scat C-35, light lifters, berg chromoly push-rods
Rods: Stock
Exhaust: 1.5" merged with single quite pack
Cooling: Stock doghouse shroud w/ stock thermostat, & full-flow external oil cooler controled by MS
Other: lightened flywheel, full flow filter, maybe deep sump

this setup is supposed to rev smoothly till ~5500 with stock heads and +6k with CB heads, well i guess :(

the efi is more reliable than the carbs thru all the rev range, and ofcourse more effecient, maybe megasquirt is a pita to tune and install, but you'll get what worth your effort.
the c/w crank is a must for a high-rev engine for sure, and you will need it forget(not cast) when 1776 or higher, and friction also will be a problem on high revs, and the bad oil will get the engine to a fast end, then you'll need a good full-flow filter to reduce the friction effects happens due to small particles.
for the cams, we have to put in mind that our bugs can't be fitted with a vtec :p , that's why the cam should be selected due to your driving condition, other parameters will affects this but the cam is the most, then the carb(or TB) size.
type4 is ofcourse the best choice in all cases(street or track), but i always think of it as a very expensive choice becuase you will not just get a type4 engine and bolt it in, you need a nice larg list for this convesion, and also type4 parts is very expensive compared to type1.
turbo is also a good idea specially when added to a reliable setups like 1776 or 2007, but the cons of the turbo is that you will suffer on high speeds, and if you pick a large turbo to fix this, you will suffer from it's lag :( , again it's a matter of how you will drive your car.
for you main question, you'll have to use magic spells to tell exactly how much power your setup will give loool , you will get only estimations or a "range" close enough to the main power. for a "tepical" well built 1776 you may get a 120hp from it, most common project with a 044 heads, w110 cam, dual 40mm idf and merged 1.5" header, will give 90-100hp and maybe 110hp.
also a cooler engine is a longer life one, but it don't make any sense when cooling the oil, and forget about the heads. we know that heads gets really hot faster that oil inside the engine. cb heads is known to be stronger and it's fins is well designed to transfer heat faster than stock heads, stock style thermostat is also a perfect choice here, you should also use electronic ignition wich will give you stable timing. go efi and your engine will never be happier.
i have another option wich will sound a bit weird, did you think of converting your engine to a subaru or a wbx or even a golf mk engine???? it will cost a lot cheaper and ofcourse more reliable and drivable power.

i hope i helped a little, and good luck in your project...

Michael

[Veedub]

Thanks Mike I did think of the subaru motors but I thought they would be more expensive and also I dont really want to cut on my bug. I have my mind set on a 1776cc, the site aircooled.net says you can get up to 150hp with there heads but I dont know what setup would be needed for that.My driving..um Im a rabit at take off but I drive normal, that make sense?:laugh:

[Veedub]

Scat Pro Street Forged 1.25:1 rockers- 157.45 (to cheap?)
Engle W110 cam with a .430" lift and .284" duration- 64.95
Billet Steel Straight Cut cam- 73.45
Super Big Bore Kit 90.5mm p&c's forged- 199.95
4140 Forged Chromoly 69mm crank- 179.95
Pertronix Distributor Ignitor II w/ non vac- 169.95
Flamethrower II Coil - 37.95
Pertronix 8.0mm plug wires- 29.95

I did a little more searching (remember project will be a later side project, but like I said, dont hurt to prepare now than not know what I want later on)
well anyways I did a little more searching and found this stuff for a 1776cc or a 2007cc if you desire.Maybe this will help you also Evilangel.
instead of a Engle W110 use a 86A( aircooled.net calls it a Mild Ratio Grind cam) - 94.95
Aircooled.nets, L5 Road Warrior Heads- 750.00 plus a Venturi cut valve job- 50.00 plus Match port intakes (if you buy intakes from them) -50.00
Lowbuggets 1.4:1 forged rockers (need a 1.4 or 1.5:1 rocker with the cam posted above)- 129.99
Lowbugget has malhe forged 90.5 pistons and cylinders- 180.00
Bosch Rev limiting rotors 5800rpms- 24.99
Jbugs Dual 40IDF carb kit (maybe cheaper from somewhere else?)- 829.95

What you think this would do to the reliability issues, anything bad?

a total of 2628.08 of course thats not counting shipping, and hopefully you get more than 100hp :laugh:

[beetle1303]

IMO there is no need to get the c/w crank for a 1776 except if u plan on putting a turbo on it on a latter stage... Just balance the stock crank,rods and lightened flywheel and u will be fine (done this and came up to 6.5k rpm, with useful rpm up to 6k).

For carbs i use dual 40 webers, with velocity stalks and tall air filters. Carbs was a nightmare to jet after syncronizing them. Result is two jet settings. one foe winter one for summer...

For exhaust im using half of the collector from a Kadron system (like a single quiet pack/not so quiet:p ), custom made j tubes, as the rest of the collector and a 60mm group A style muffler.

Seriously, ditch the stock fuel pump, specially if u are on a hot area... it gets hot, wont suck enough fuel, lean mixture, preignition and bang there is a hole... I got a Weber carb pump fitted in the front compartment below the spare wheel (1303) so its a gravity fed one. U can run an extra oil breather line from a blocking plate on the stock fuel pump's hole...


Along with the petronix ignitor and wires get a 009 Bosch dizzy. IF u dont have a breathing system, there is a possibility, that oil will blow through the dizzy's o ring. it looks like the oil cooler has burst...(been there...)

Last but not least, get bolt on rocker shafts. I had a washer snaped and the noise is aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrghhghggh... i dont want to remember... Lucky though the was no damage, so i changed to bolt ons straight way


Chris

[Veedub]

Thanks chris, yeah I agree bout there no need for a c/w crank but I was getting a forged one just in case.The stock fuel pump will be ditched, anyone in particular I should get?And about the dizzy Im going to get the Pertronics Ignitor II non vac, its a dizzy, and coil, and wires.And for carbs I was thinking 40IDF's but not with velocity stacks, I'd think it would be easy to suck in water that way.
Lightened Flywheel you would recomend, would I need a bigger fuel sump, maybe?

[Astromic]

ok, i think reliability also could be improved by fine-selecting your cam, i read before that you must choose a high duration cam not a high lift one(relatively), because high lift cams put more stress into the valvetrain wich will decrease the overall life of the engine, for example scat c-35 has .410" Lift & 286 Degree Duration, Engle w-110 has .430"Lift & 284 Degrees Duration, they both have close duration, but engle has a higher lift, that means is make more strees on the valvtrain. also the lope shape decides that, sharp lopes is faster to push, so it is also not good for the engine...
i'm not sure about informations about valvetrain stress, as i only read it but not experienced it yet in the real world, so if any one knows better please correct me...

beetle1303,
do u know any site talking about balancing the crank? i only have sites contains articles about balancing the rods and the pistons, but don't have any talking about the crank, i want somthing good as i'm doing the job my own, thank's in advance...<<veedub, sorry for hijacking your post :o >>

Michael

[EvilAngel]

Thanks for the info veedub. I think that cam will give a better reliability, for what i've read it lessens the stress on the valvetrain, exactly as Michael says. As a matter of fact i've read just yesterday htat it is indeed a very important factor of reliability on strokers. I agree with the lightened flywheel. I think that if you can afford the crank, go for it. It does no bad, and it certanily can stand more abuse than a stock c/w. As for the sump, there's been a lot of discussion on this topic, and it doesn't really keep the engine cooler, it just make it take longer to warm up. However, it can prevent oil starvation under some circumstances

Michael: I agree 100% with you, EFI is the way to go, but it's extremely expensive, specially since i've seen new webers 44 idf at about 700 on thesamba. As for cooling, i plan on 043's as cb's "regular" 044's don't seem ported, they just seem to have big valves, and their ported versions are a bit expensive for my budget. Also, i've read steve tims' heads are very well done, and they're affordable. And about cooling, i plan on keeping my stock shroud and thermostat, and install a temp sensor on cylinder #3 (this is the hottest) if i see temp's too high i will have to save for a DTM shroud. And my car came stock with electronic ignition :D

[Veedub]

EvilAngel, I asked some people over in the CLF forumabout the combo of the 1776/2007 we are wanting, if I can say we:laugh:
And they said that the L5 heads would be overkill with a 1776cc but with a 2007 it would be fine.
Anyway I got a combo from them for a 1904cc which is 90.5x74
90.5 stroker pistons (not sure if there forged though, from thesamba is where they said to get them)- found some for 148.00
Ceramic coated 1 5/8 header exhaust (from thesamba)- 155.00
74mm DPR crankshaft (from thesamba)- 250.00
VW Journal I-Beam forged con-rods (from thesamba, same ad as the 74mm crank)- 75.00
VW journal bearings (thesamba, same ad as the 74mm crank)- 8.00
Chromoly Gland nut 36mm, 42mm, 44mm (thesamba, same ad as the 74mm crank)- 12.00
044 Super Mag CNC Round Port Heads w/ 40x35.5 S/S valves (42x37 is optional) CNC porting, Dual Rev Springs, Chromoly Retainers, Hardened Valve locks- 605.95 for pair
Stock flywheel (if you want a new one) - 63.95
Eagle Racing cam- Adv Duration .286"/ Dur. @ .050" .240"/ Lift @ Cam .430"/ Lift w/ 1.1:1 rocker arms .473 (equal to and Engle W110) - 74.95
High Compacity 1.5qt Oil Sump- 69.99

There was a few guys there that say CB Performances heads were the best, and also told me not to cheap out on stuff:eek: i cant spend 800 bucks for a crank, sorry my budget wont allow me to, even though i am single.:laugh: thats just to much to me.

PS. I still think the sec. combo i made seems better, i donno, theres could be better though. :confused:

[EvilAngel]

Well i think that's a nice combo. However, i'd add a chromoly lightened flywheel to your selection. I agree that spending 800 bucks for a crank is just silly, only makes sense if you have extremely deep pockets, which we don't. CB is known for having excellent heads, really among the very best, and i believe thos 044s will be as good as it gets for what we want. For a 1904 i would have a engle 120 or equivalent with 1.1:1 rockers, and dont forget the rocker arm thingies (cant remember the name right now) they look like screws, and you'll have to upgrade them as well. The main advantage of the 1904 is that it will run cooler than a 2007 and yet it'll be much torquier than a 1776. You may run a higher CR on a 1904, sacrificing some heat to get a little more power. I have a friend with a 1904, and he says it's a very nice combo. He beats mustang gt's at the dragstrip with that. And it's his daily driver

[Veedub]

Well i think that's a nice combo. However, i'd add a chromoly lightened flywheel to your selection. I agree that spending 800 bucks for a crank is just silly, only makes sense if you have extremely deep pockets, which we don't. CB is known for having excellent heads, really among the very best, and i believe thos 044s will be as good as it gets for what we want. For a 1904 i would have a engle 120 or equivalent with 1.1:1 rockers, and dont forget the rocker arm thingies (cant remember the name right now) they look like screws, and you'll have to upgrade them as well. The main advantage of the 1904 is that it will run cooler than a 2007 and yet it'll be much torquier than a 1776. You may run a higher CR on a 1904, sacrificing some heat to get a little more power. I have a friend with a 1904, and he says it's a very nice combo. He beats mustang gt's at the dragstrip with that. And it's his daily driver


beating mustangs? wow :eek: that would be nice. Using a 74mm crank would you by chance know what all he needed to do to the motor to get that crank in? The 90.5mm pistons I know would take machine work but the 74 crank i was told is just a slip in, but how true that is, is a question I'm wondering.

[EvilAngel]

Well he said he had to do just a little bit of clerancing, but for what i've read it depends on the crank. Some will slip in, some will need clearance. It depends on the size of the couterweights

[Veedub]

What you mean by the counterweights? Im still learning :D

[EvilAngel]

The parts of metal just opposite to the journals, across the "center" of the crank. Just don't know i i made myself clear :(

[Veedub]

ok i think..:laugh: lol Im not sure either.

[EvilAngel]

On the atachment, two are pointed with arrows and one is circled

[Veedub]

On the atachment, two are pointed with arrows and one is circled

ahh ok i got you now, i was thinking you were talking about those but wasnt sure.

[Veedub]

Anyone know if dual 44mm kadrons would be about the same, performance wise as dual 40IDF's? I know one is a single barrel and the others a 2 barrel, just I was wondering since the 44mm kadrons are modified and beefed up 40mm Kadrons.

[EvilAngel]

I think they're equivalent, but being 2BB, the webers will offer higher performance... at a price. BTW, my mustang-beating friend has Kads.

[Veedub]

Yeah Im thinking of getting a set of Kads, there ALOT cheaper than Webers.
Oh, also on that note...umm new pics of my bug will be coming soon, I get my tax returns in couple weeks and when that comes, im going to go buy the stuff I need to make my bug driveable at least, then as time goes i'll start addding stuff to improve handling, a bit off topics but what would you recomend to improve handling, along with using 15x4.5's with 195/60's(im going to stay with them for a while)?
Also if you know, what combo does your friend have done to his motor, id like to have mustang catching power :laugh: just to say hey i can keep up with your stang? :p

[EvilAngel]

Is your car swingaxle or IRS? Im assuming it's a std, not a super
For handlig in my 90 std, swingaxle rear, ball joint front, i am going to add a camber compensator in the rear and a beefy swaybar in the front. Also im gonna use gas shocks in the rear, and hydraulic shocks in the front. Im also using dropped spindles (just arrived today :D ) and discs all around. Then i'm gonna go for fat tires.

My friend has a 74mm forged chromoly crank, 90.5 cimas, P&P stock heads with 43 x 37.5 valves, engle 120 cam, bosch 009 dist, 2 kadrons (dont know which # though) external oil cooler, high flow fuel pump, that rocker thing which name i still can't remember, and teflon piston locks. Stock doghouse, and lightened flywheel. Oh and he has a vw 1500 tranny

[Veedub]

Yes my bug has IRS and also its a standard.
I was looking at the possibilities of a turbocharged motor, like a 1600cc,1776cc or and 1835cc.I read that there really reliable with a turbo, and good on gas if its a daily driver.Lowbugget has a under the decklid turbokit for the bug that looks pretty nice.Does anyone know of any other site that sells a turbo kit for the bug?

[Veedub]

just curious so I'll ask about this setup...
Hopefully someone on here can answer it:confused:
Machine in 88mm pistons and cylinders (forged if they exist as and option)
DPR 74mm Chromoly forged c/w crank
Lowbuggets 1.4:1 forfed rockers
Lowbuggets LBC Cam and billet lifters
Lowbuggets 1600T kit
Heads..........I cant find any

Do 88mm bore hi po heads exist in the aftermarket or would I have to special order them?
By the way it would be and 1800cc motor....I can go rip a 1.8T badge off some guys Jetta:laugh:

[EvilAngel]

Yes, turbo is nice and reliable if using little boost. But it is expensive. You can check out cbperformance hideaway turbo. I really see no point in getting 88mm pistons if you cant get 90.5 for the exact same price of both pistons and case machining, and probably save on the heads since you can get an "off the shelf" hi-po head. Another thing, is that i don't like a turbo kit with carbs, since you'll never get the optimum performance unless you heavily mod them, and still they can't compare with a nice EFI. But that's just me bitching, carbs and turbo do work, just not as good as EFI and turbo

Oh and if you got irs, dont get a camber compensator, get a rear swaybar

[Veedub]

Yeah I was planning on getting front and rear swaybars to improve handling to help my 15x4.5's with 195/60's:laugh:
Im liking the idea of a 1.8T for my bug, 88mmx74mm, I was told it would be and awesome combo along with a set of 90.5mm bore CB 044 round port heads,a cam, 1.25:1 rockers and a optional cam gear.Id want to use a stock flywheel and need a stage 1 clutch I assume.With a stock tranny I wonder how it would be, I just want it quick off the line and be reliable for 100k, i dont care bout the top end though.:D

[Veedub]

Evilangel since your doing your motor sooner than i am, i was talking to a guy that builds vw motor.
just bore your case out to whatever size your wanting, an buy the pistons forged, then buy the turbokit from aj at lowbugget and get your stock heads opened up or buy heads from cb performance.you'll have a motor that makes power w/o going over 6000rpms and still be reliable then as time goes on, change out the rockers to increase the stock cams lift or other cam.Stock cranks are forged by the way, unless you want to get one counterweighted.
I might do my motor this way when the time comes.

[EvilAngel]

Seem interesting. I like the idea of a turbo, however it might take a lot of space in the engine bay, and this might be a problen since i want to add A/C.
Heat here is very extreme

[Veedub]

Seem interesting. I like the idea of a turbo, however it might take a lot of space in the engine bay, and this might be a problen since i want to add A/C.
Heat here is very extreme

i think his kit, theres and option that he can make it where you can have a/c.

[EvilAngel]

In that case I will consider it... having a 1.8T like you say sounds cool
Edit: Ive checked prices, and I think that the 2007 seup s cheaper. At least I think I'll begin with it, and i will consider turbo in the future.... 2.0T :D

[beetle1303]

Veedub, about water, if u don't run airfilters u will ^%**££ ur engine soon cos of dust particles being sucked in and making indentations to the valve seats and piston rings, as well as scorching? the cylinder walls.

Rain in particular will not get in that easily if ur on the road.
I did this for a while, and I used to cover the carbs every time i parked, and washed the car...

Chris

[Veedub]

My motor has and airfilter..what are you talking about, you kind of lost me..:confused:

[beetle1303]

Thanks chris, ....And about the dizzy Im going to get the Pertronics Ignitor II non vac, its a dizzy, and coil, and wires.And for carbs I was thinking 40IDF's but not with velocity stacks, I'd think it would be easy to suck in water that way.



anyway i was browsing the thread, and thought u meant that with the stalks water can find an easier route into the carbs and eventually the engine... ( assummed no air filters are used) then i said that i have run my beetle without air filters for a while (few days until i recieved my airfilters) and ive been extra super careful about water and driving conditions (dust, moist etc) cas particles small enough can find their way into the engine and be the cause of unneccessay faults and overhauls....

it could just be silly me, tired, with a bit more alcohol in my system etc....:p :p

Chris

[Veedub]

In that case I will consider it... having a 1.8T like you say sounds cool
Edit: Ive checked prices, and I think that the 2007 seup s cheaper. At least I think I'll begin with it, and i will consider turbo in the future.... 2.0T :D

Or you can order a turbokit from Mat Davis http://www.mattdavisracing.com/store.htm
He told me if you run 94x69 (1915cc) then do a little headwork, mild cam, you can have about 300hp..Im guessing you could use CB Performances heads..but I donno if his kits can be run with and a/c, you can ask him.

[EvilAngel]

Thanks for the tip. I will consider that :D

[Veedub]

Thanks for the tip. I will consider that :D

But I dont know if a 300hp 1915Turbo would be reliable for a daily driver, but I can imagin thats not at low boost.
But it would be cool to raise the wheels up off the ground in front of some guy in a civic :laugh:

[EvilAngel]

even with half of that you can say the civics goodbye. I too have my doubts about reliability, but hey, im happy with 180 hp

[Veedub]

even with half of that you can say the civics goodbye. I too have my doubts about reliability, but hey, im happy with 180 hp

id be happy with 180hp too. Aircooled.net says a bug with 180hp is as fast as a Vette..if thats really true thatys pretty cool. Just the Vettes top end would be really REALLY scary in a bug :laugh:

[EvilAngel]

Yeah, I agree. Anyway, truth is my budget is not for reliable 180hp, at least not at this point. Guess i'll have to stay on the 130 - 140, which is as fast as a 'stang according to AC.net, and that's an improvement from stock!!

[Veedub]

Yeah, I agree. Anyway, truth is my budget is not for reliable 180hp, at least not at this point. Guess i'll have to stay on the 130 - 140, which is as fast as a 'stang according to AC.net, and that's an improvement from stock!!
Yeah truthfuly my budget for now wont let me build my motor up yet, when my bugs done in a couple months and its on the road I'll start buying 1 part at a time, or 2 depending on the price. But it dont hurt to decide what you want to do to your motor in advance right?:laugh:

[EvilAngel]

Yes, that's exactly the way i'm doing it....

[Veedub]

just throw up your ideas, what are you wanting, anyway, just curious.

[EvilAngel]

Well, i'm planning the 2007cc setup mentioned above, with minor changes for durabilty. However since i have to pay A LOT for shipping i have to do it gradually. Plus i'm still waiting for my rear discs, camber comp and front swaybar to arrive. when i have all of that installed i will start to buy the engine stuff. I know that after a while, my 2007 won't be enough, and then i'll go for the turbo, and/or EFI. that's why i chose some things to have the turbo later, like I-beams instead of h-beams, etc. Right now im trying to find out what kind of heads i have. If they're 043's i will just P&P them. If they are 040 or 041's, i'd rather get a brand new set ---> $$$
I really like the EFI idea, since i got a carputer, and it would be cool to tune it from the dashboard touschscreen :D

[Veedub]

EvilAngel, we could go the "simple" route.Small displacement but big power.
forged 85.5 pistons cylenders
C/w forged 69mm crank (74mm possibly?)
stock pushrods
stock cam or cheater cam
1.4:1 forged rockers
forged I-beam rods
044 MAGNUM with 40 x 35.5mm S/S valves, Dual Super Rev Springs, Chromoly Retainers, & Sure-Grip Locks (STD. Bore)
then mat davis or lowbuggets turbokit

I seen somewhere, where there was a 1600T that made 126hp with 10psi, but dont remember where though.According to the guys from the STF forums, the 1600T is very reliable if you dont go out and race it and rev it all to hell and back(but i think thats any motor)

[EvilAngel]

Revving. That's the issue. I really don't want a car that requires a lot of revving to start to show some juice. And, as you say, revving to get power will increase wear, and therefore reduce reliability. That's why i decided to get a stroker. Plus i don't see much point on using 85.5 cylinders, being 90.5 just as reliable.

I understand your point, getting a smaller yet powerful engine. But that means less torque. And torquey engines are by far more fun to drive everyday.

On a final note, not only is the 2007 cheaper to build, but it still leaves room for some improvement in the future, like adding the turbo... If we went the 1600t route, the only thing we could do later (other than fine tuning or adding boost) would be increasing the displacement...
2007cc N/A --> 140hp (guesstimation)
2007 T ---> :eek:

[Veedub]

I think I may build a small displacement motor (remember I was a jap car fan) so i like small displacement big power in a way :D Mostly because the guy thats going to help build my motor does not want to really build a hi po motor.He dont want to be the one put the blame on if something goes wrong with the motor, which I understand.:DHe's known my dad since before i existed on earth:laugh: :so hes trustworthy, hes like and uncle.
Im thinking either a 1600cc 85.5x69 forged, 87x69 (yes im very aware)
What would a 85.5x74 be? a 1699cc? :confused: With a turbo they dont got to rev extremely high to make power which is cool. I think turbo kicks in at 1800rpms with them.

[EvilAngel]

Yes, that's the displacement. And i'd say that it all depends on how you set up the turbo. Lower boost and a wider power band seems the way to go.
BTW, i also had a b15 sentra before, but it was a GSX auto, no performance to squeeze from it. And vdubs are WAY cheaper to mod.
Only thing is that in Mexico no one respects them... but that makes for a perfect sleeper...

[Veedub]

these cars get no respect, hardly from the local import guys here. whats funny is they compare there cars to mine which will be stock.they'll say like "oh my honda civic will kill your bug stock for stock, and even if your bug was built my stock honda would squash it like a bug" i get tired of them :laugh: im not a street or strip racer but if i gotta make a point i will.:D i'll just have fun doing it.

[Astromic]

turbocharging your engine(1600 or 2007) is a bad idea if u seek drivability, first of all you'll suffer from fuel economy because i assume you will drawthru it, and if you blowthru it it will help the mpg a bit but your pocket will suffer then, but don't expect a large improvment in it even with blowthru...
second, you can kiss highway speed goodbye, that's about +70mph, and the only thing that could help this is to pick a bigger turbo, and then ofcourse you will suffer the lag at lower rpm range...
turbo is a tricky project to build, and recuires a lot of planning before buying the parts, or you'll end up frying your engine, but if you intend to run it on tracks only, then turbo is your best choise...

2007 is a good engine for street and track, and expect a lot of fun driving it, and you could even make some hondas smell your exhaust easily.
an ideal mild 2007 engine could make 125hp at the wheels while maintaining a great low end trq, and you could sqweez it up to 150hp but Sacrifice some of the low end...
i'm now changing my 1776 project for a torquey 2007, and still FI it, and will start building it as soon as i finish planning and saving some cash too(i'm a not a rich guy after all :bawling: )
good luck in your project, keep us updated...

[Veedub]

But I thought turbochargin a t-1 motor increased fuel economy and performance. I read some guys get 20-30mpg but anyways I just want it for the performance factor.Although gas milage would be cool.I would go Draw through, with a carberator since I dont want to go through all the pita stuff you got to go through converting it over and all the pointless money spending since I dont think converting to EFI would increase hp.

[EvilAngel]

I dont think efi would increase (at leastnot substantially) hp from a well tuned carb system. But it does help reliability as it has less moving parts that can fail, and it really improves mileage. Also it opnes a lot of possibilities for fine tuning.
Also if you have EFI & turbo, i don't see why would you suffer from drivability if properly set up. I do think you'll suffer if using carbs + turbo, but this may be negligible if the setup is perfect. I have read in both the samba, STF and VZi of people with small displacement turbo engines and love it... Im just looking for more torque.

[Astromic]

I dont think efi would increase (at leastnot substantially) hp from a well tuned carb system.
it will increase the power, or at least the same power(but not less) more than a well tuned carb, i'm not talking about a huge gain in power, i'm talking about "healthy" increasment of power, in a FI setup you have the fine-tune ability and feedback feature, that you don't have in any carb setup, even if you are a master in carb tuning and rejetting.

But it does help reliability as it has less moving parts that can fail.
sure, but in other hand it increase the longivity of your expensive engine, beacause you have cleaner mixture without being too lean nor too rich, and both ofcourse reduce the engine life, specialy lean running.
and also when you add ecu-controled ignition like edis, your engine could never be more happier :D .

Also if you have EFI & turbo, i don't see why would you suffer from drivability if properly set up. I do think you'll suffer if using carbs + turbo, but this may be negligible if the setup is perfect. I have read in both the samba, STF and VZi of people with small displacement turbo engines and love it... Im just looking for more torque.
if you have the ability and knowledge to install a well-built turbo setup, then go for it for sure, but you will have to blow-thru it if you want it to last and also if you don't want to add an extra fuel tank :cool: , blow it will make your tuning job easier and you will have the ability of controlling the ignition, and you know it's a must for turbo or you will have a pre-ignition problems, modifing or locking the advance in regular dist. will help, but again not like ecu controlled...
sorry for being a racist toward efi :rolleyes: , but when you decide and build it, you will see what i mean...

Michael

[EvilAngel]

I agree with you 100%, that's why i said i'd only get a turbo engine IF i had EFI... Or even without the turbo, if it was affordable. There are LOTS of issues when thinking of a turbo+carb engine, as you point out.

I think we got lost at some point, or were you saying this to VeeDub?

[Astromic]

I think we got lost at some point, or were you saying this to VeeDub?
yes, i was arguing with VeedDub about fuel economy, as he say turbo has more fuel economy potentials.
i was supporting your words, but i just added some other points to yours.
veedub,
i forgot to say, that your turbo will be fuel effecient, only when you are off-boost, i don't know why as i'm not an expert, but i'll assume that because your engine will not make any force to suck the intake mixture, but this will end as soon as you go on boost, so you will rarely see this happens.
a user in STF (i don't remember his name), built a 94x69 turbocharged engine megasquirted with EDIS. i remember that this guy fine-tuned his engine for ages and he did a great job finaly and do have a lot of experience about turbos, he was saying that his mpg was 22 only on combined driving(on-off boost), many users didn't see more with the same setup.
if you can live with this mpg, go turbo, you will be happy with the power, but at least FI it...

Michael

[EvilAngel]

Yes, again I agree with you. However, I do think that you can get a decent MPG with and EFI & turbo engine, IF you are mild on boost, which also helps drivability. Do you remember how much boost did this guy have?

[Veedub]

I got more info on the turbo idea. If I get everything forged, pistons,crank,I beams, rockers, I can run up to 15psi and be reliable. Talked to a guy thats had his kit running 15psi, and has had it for 5 years now with no major probs. Oh and hes making 140hp (138whp)

[EvilAngel]

Yes but that makes the price go to sky. Cimas aren't forged, or so it seems. You are gonna spend some bucks on a forged 1600cc, and then a similar amount on the turbo.

[Veedub]

yeah, come to find out his was a home made turbo kit.:rolleyes: He never mentioned that...

I talked to Darren from DRD on the volkstalk forum, I was telling him what I wanted, a daily driver with a twist, for the temptation of just wanting to nail it on the straight aways here :laugh: which everyone does thats my age anyways.
I was telling him Id like a 1641cc, and I knew about the pistons, not like I plan on overheating my car anyway:laugh:
He told me
87mm pistons forged
69mm c/w forged chromoly crank
118 Web Cam cam
Dual throat Webers 40mm
Merged header and Super Turbo Muffler (I added)
Stock heads ( but I dont want stock heads)
combo is good for around 90hp 130lbs torque.

[EvilAngel]

Seems very well. I only say that you better get P&P heads, even if they're mild. And if you are going to spend in machining anyway, and you are also gonna get a new set of pistons/cylinders, why not go with 90.5's?

[Veedub]

Well, 87mm pistons dont require machining and there less expensive.:D
Also for heads I was thinking of DRD's L3 heads,
specs on them
This style of head porting is for a street car/ off road car with a increase of approx 30% more than stock hp and flow.
Power output, depending on your combo, power ranges from 75HP to 125HP.
A full port and polish, small port, combustion chambers reshaped, intake manifolds matched, fly cut for
compression, comp valve job, springs shimmed to your cam and rockers, and flow bench tested.
This port combo retains bottom end torque, with excellent mid range and high end pull to 6500 rpms and increased
fuel mileage. For use on stock vw castings with stock intakes an stock exhaust valves.
Recommended mild cams shafts and mild lift .400 ~.450 numbers at the rockers.
DRD L3 porting labor per pair, includes Bead blast cleaning $275.00

And specs on the 118 Web Cam perf. cam
Valve lift .402"/ Dur of cam .283"/ Dur. at .050" .246"/
$87.00

[EvilAngel]

Seems ok, but if they're slip-ins that means their cylinder walls are thinner. I'd stay with stock bore, or get at least machine-in's with stock wall width.
You don't want these to warp.

[Veedub]

Does anyone on here know what the difference in hp and torque would be in a 90.5x69 (1776) and a 87x74(1760) just wondering.

[EvilAngel]

HP would depend more on your heads, and i guess the stroker would be a bit torquier... just theory no first hand experience

[Veedub]

ok I decided , Im going with a 1641cc with this motor, the other motor I found out it has a w100 cam, c/w crank, heads prob got something, 1.25:1 rockers, and the PO had a progressive on it, but he kept it, so Im goin to run a 34pic on it, since I got one already.The 1641cc with the combo I was told to go with, it will have about 95hp and 120lbs torque, which is what I want.

[Veedub]

this is my motor combo.
It will be the 1641cc, found a better combo that wont kill my wallet as much...
87x69, 044 magnum 40x35.5 heads with cut 55cc chambers,bugpack cam .284 duration and .484" lift w/ 1.25:1 rockers, dual 40mm kadrons, merged 1.5" header w/ hideout muffler, and a full pertonix ignition.

Option #2 heads are 044 Super Magnum cnc round port heads, 40x35.5 valves, cnc porting, dual super rev springs, chromoly retainers, hardened valve locks, and 3 angle valve job - 605.95 per pair.

Any idea what the hp and torque might be?
Im guessing 100-110hp and 130lbs torque

[Veedub]

hey guys, my dads friend was telling me that i can really wake up a stock 1600cc with mild bolt ons, and if I want, add a cam, motor needs rebuild anyway, and it going to be my backup motor and i just want it quicker than stock with enough balls to move out its own way.the motor thats in my car now is what i really want to build since its the one with most hp and torque stock out of the 2.

For the 1600cc I read in a past Hot VW magazine that they added bolt ons onto a 1600cc and it rand 17's, if i added heads and a cam and diff size carberators maybe it would be in the low 16's high 15's possibly?

Anyways depending if the pistons are still good would i want to reuse them or get new ones, same with the connecting rods,flywheel?
id use this kit http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5000%2D KT
would stock rods be ok, or i beam or h beams be and improvement, since there in the kit?
what cam followers would i want?
id go for the forged c/w 69mm crank with a W110 or W120 cam with a cam gear.
Then order dual 40 or 44mm kadrons, 1:25:1 rockers,merged header and muffler, and for heads...maybe cb's 044 heads

What you guys think, should i do that for my first motor build up then when its done and in my bug, take the current motor thats in the bug and build it into a bigger bore motor like a 1776cc?

[EvilAngel]

Hi again.
I'd say to use the engine with the least wear for the Hi-po, and the other one should be the mild one. If you're staying 1600, and are ona budget, you can add the w110, stock rockers, and dual kads should be fine. If your pistons, crank and rods are in better then perfect condition, and you don't plan on racing, they should be fairly ok, since you should want to spend your cash on the larger engine. Merged headers are a must, and for a 1600 i'd stay away from 044, and go 043, DRD or steve tims, because of their higher port velocity on a small displacement engine. Lightening the stock flywheel should work too. Oh, and stay away from lube-a-lobes, i've read too many bad things from them
All this is under the assumption that:
1. you are gonna build an engine that's more fun than stock, but are not gonna race it
2. you are on a budget
3. in the near future, you'll be getting a better engine (and would rather spend your cash on it)


As for your second engine, well it all comes to budget and usage.

Cheers

[Veedub]

oops i double posted..

[EvilAngel]

Yup, you did. Nice engine in the other thread BTW. Great starting point, and already better than my engine....
BTW, it seems that i'm gonna do a 2180cc... but that's for another thread:D

[Eurolook71]

Evilangel since your doing your motor sooner than i am, i was talking to a guy that builds vw motor.
just bore your case out to whatever size your wanting, an buy the pistons forged, then buy the turbokit from aj at lowbugget and get your stock heads opened up or buy heads from cb performance.you'll have a motor that makes power w/o going over 6000rpms and still be reliable then as time goes on, change out the rockers to increase the stock cams lift or other cam.Stock cranks are forged by the way, unless you want to get one counterweighted.
I might do my motor this way when the time comes.


I agree. ajs stuff is great. i had the rebushed throttle and did the air cleaner mod for dual k-duds, good stuff. Ive head everything out of there is quality. i'd considered the turbo on a 1600, but then I sold the bug, instead :( You can get some decent street heads as well form lowbugget.