Let There Be Brakes!!!
 

I'm starting on the brakes now. I already have the RPI Equipped!(now defunked) Wilwood DynaLight 4 pots for the rear, as I got the whole kit for cost, and for the front I'm thinking another set of those or maybe some 6 pots? (I know, I know, Lazylongboarder is wearing off on me) but I can get them for cost as well so why not?

Anyway, today I purchased this Wilwood pedal assembly. It's reverse mount so I hope to be able to make it work, but I really need to have the pedals in my hand to fit them. I got them for $160 plus about $13 in shipping from Ebay, and Wilwood lists them for over $200 w/o shipping, so I'm feeling OK about that.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/246088.jpg

Jason

So lay out the design plan... reverse mount? you gonna hang'em? or try to adapt to a floor mount? resevoirs inside or outside?
I've seen some really cool pics of race cars done both ways. Gonna be sooo cool!


Jeff-

Hang reverse mount. I'm going to fab up a bracket that attaches to stock points and I'll have to drill a couple more. Remote reservoirs under the hood. Brake bias bar with remote adjustment for now, and if I need it an adjustable proportioning valve to the rear. These pedals are the shortest ones they have with a 5.1/1 ratio. I asked Wilwood and they said for our little cars that ratio should be fine, and it gives me a little more space for pedal travel. I really don't know if those pedals with fit until I get them there, but they are just over 10" long at their longest, so I think that should fit under the steering column. We'll see!


What about T's for the system, should I just use the stock T's or is there something else I should look at?

Jason

The only thing I've ever seen with hard lines are those brass or aluminum block style... pick up a Street Rodder mag at the newstand, there are several companies listed that do nothing but brake hardware.
I'm in the process of upgrading a few things on the bus myself. Nothing as glamourus as your stuff, changing over to dual circuit M/C and adding a bias valve... are you planning to use the knob style or lever?


Jeff-

That's a little personal isn't it? I think knob, from what I understand it's infinitely adjustable while the lever has detents, but I could be wrong. According to the Wilwood guys, I should only get the proportioning valve if the bias bar isn't enough adjustment.

What sort of ends do those steel lines need anyway? I heard SS lines have to use some special pressed end or something. I havn't had any experience with brake system construction, just OEM type replacement.

Jason

Educate me a little... bias bar means you have independent cylinder and resevoir for the front and rear and the bar limits pressure on one or the other?
Pressed end? Not sure about that either. They do have a specific flare (degree amount) on the ends but that's all I was aware of...
It would be really cool looking if you could use braided everywhere but of course that's a big no-no and a wee bit pricey. :(



Jeff-

you can buy a good flaring/bending tool for less than $100 from most places

Yeah, there's a bar that runs between the front and rear master cylinders. On the bar is the sliding linkage. You can get a remote adjuster that is a knob that when twisted, will pull or push the linkage along the bar. It adjusts the pressure that each master cylinder sees.

Hopefully, if I select the right master cylinders, I won't need to get the proportioning valve, and just the balance bar will be enough to dial it in.

"you can buy a good flaring/bending tool for less than $100 from most places"

I've got a couple of benders already, but I don't have a flaring tool. I've also heard there are specific flares for specific situation ie the angles, so I'm going to have to do a little research before I can get it done.

Jason

Which master cylinders you will use??

Wilwood´s or something else??

Wilwood is saying 1" diam. for front and rear for the master cylinders and then the balance bar in the pedal assembly for tuning. I will probably not go 6 piston, as they are almost twice as heavy as the Dynalite 4 pot. If the Dynalites on the rear have 1 3/8" pistons, I'll be using 1 5/8 pistons on the front, but I have to reasearch as to what I actually have in the rear right now, they came as part of a kit I ordered and I don't know exactly what they are.


http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/247659.jpg

Jason

volksdent

I resently did a wilwood triple firewall setup seen here

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d5...2.jpg~original

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d5...1.jpg~original

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d5...9.jpg~original

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d5...3.jpg~original


2nd gen Rx7 4 pots up front
single piston ford tarus sliders in the back

using 3/4 front mc
and 7/8 rear mc

also using 7/8 clutch mc

people say to use a 3/4 clutch mc but it was still a bit of movment I like the 7/8" better

oh and btw the last pic was without the pedals adjusted.

oh yea also I made up a excel spreadsheet similar to the one tiltons uses to calculate the mc sizing if you want me to run some numbers lets me know.

I would need things like those in the attachment

many of the things I've already figured like pedal force and the measurements of the pedal assembly.

but tire size and specs on the brake calipers are definately needed.

let me know
rip

some samples of the outputs

Thanks for the info!

Are you going to build a false floor to get your feet up as high as the pedals are? I was just checking out the Stasis Engineering Speed Touring Car A4, and they did just that with some aluminum.

One way or the other, it looks like your going to have to get your clutch and brake pedals near your gas pedal. What is your plan with that?

I might have some time today to try to position those pedals today and see how they'll work. I'm going to be using remote reservoirs to make fluid access easier.

Jason

actually with the new seats in the pedals arn't that bad, i'm pretty tall with 12.5 size shoe.

but I was toying with the idea of simply extending the pedal surface a little bit lower. this is easier than the false floor. Not to mention ever try to get into a bug with a false floor? not to easy for taller guys. the steering wheel hits the legs when getting in.

But please keep us posted I was thinking of getting the reverse swing wilwood pedals but thought it would interfer with the steering column too much, that they would hit too low on the foot, and push the pedals too close to the driver. not to mention it seems like you have to build a semi cage to hold them. if you already got a cage no problem, but needless to say a few little things were discouraging me with that setup.

The problem with the firewall setup is like you mentioned the hieght. but if you build new pedals and just use the mount for the mc. you can increase the pedal ratio and drop them further. just gotta rethink the mc size then. but its all fun.

rip

Here's the A4 racers pedal assembly with the 4" false floor below it. The driver is back a bit to help weight balance of the car.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/250358.jpg

Here's the reverse swing pedal assembly in position. It sits just a bit lower than the stock pedals, a position I prefer. I'm using my M3 pedal positions as a reference, and they are just about the same.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/250359.jpg

Here's the stock MkIII VW clutch MC after I removed the studs.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/250360.jpg

I had to grind off one of the mounting posts on the base for the pedal assembly. This area is where the assembly is right up next to the steering column. Everything just fits!

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/250361.jpg

This is the clutch MC in position

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/250362.jpg

I may be using 2 of these guys to mount the assembly to the steering column. I might make a bracket that welds to these. There will also be a lateral load arm to preven the entire works for spinning on the steering shaft.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/250363.jpg

I talked to Wilwood again today. I'll be using 7/8ths MCs front and rear, the rear calipers are 1.38" diameter pistons and the fronts will be 1.75" diameter pistons. Those should be ordered up this week.

Jason

other than the lateral support to prevent the twisting on the steering column, got any other supports?

me and some friends were talking about it awhile back, and because the top and bottom support of the steering column is supported between rubber grommets, we felt that this wouldn't be too sturdy. it may also fatigue crack

Not to mention in a moment of panic you can produce about 1.5 times your body weight at the brake pedal. I'm not sure that the steering column may be the best place to mount it.

have you seen these?

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d5...4.jpg~original

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d5...3.jpg~original

may be more work but it will hold any shear and moment forces. plus you can make it adjustable

With the rack and pinion steering I have now the steering column is solidly mounted on the bottom, and I think I'll use the same bracket up top to solid mount as well. As long as the brackets and bolts are strong enough, I don't think the steering column will have any trouble with the loads. As long as it is relatively solid, I really like the idea of failure points too. When things are too overbuilt they stand up to an accident while you don't. It will be braced laterally enough to deal with any rotational forces, and the longitudinal load on that strong steering column tubing shouldn't create any troubles there. Also, because they are brackets, the whole assembly can be slid up and down the steering column to make the pedal assembly position adjustable as well!

Jason

After much head scratching I think I came up with the most simple, lightweight, and straightforward way to mount this thing. I made the bracket out of light guage square tubing. Grade 8 nuts, bolts, and washers were used. The washers extend to the edge of the square tubing to resist it being squashed. I'll have to weld in crush tubes if I have any trouble.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/251246.jpg

There are 3 sets of holes so the pedal assembly can be adjust 2 inches forward or back. Note how offset the passenger side mounting bolt hole is at the end. It's over and forward that far because if it were centered the bolt would be going through a stiffening pleat in the body instead of the flat section.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/251247.jpg

I had to step the front down a bit to clear the base. The front will have some sort of support to close the ends of the square tubing and attach the front of the support bracket to the area under the dash, but I'll wait till the MCs come and are installed.
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/251248.jpg

Here it is mounted. Only 2 bolts are holding it in right here, up against the front bulkhead. The bolts run through the flat areas right next to where the vertical bulkhead meets the angled underdash area. Should be a very strong point, and the forces are spread through the bolts AND by the bracket just butting up against the bulkhead.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/251249.jpg

I did just a little more grinding on the pedal frame so it would fit up snug against the steering column

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/251250.jpg

Here are the two bolts. Sorry they are too long, but I had planned on a thicker backing plate that I ended up not really needing. I'll get the correct length ones later.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/251251.jpg

Here are the two bolts in the trunk area. As you can see, the sheet metal is quite well supported by the bulkhead here. I used large grade 8 washers to spread the load a little.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/251252.jpg

The pedal position turned out EXACTLY where I wanted it. I used the M3 as a reference so I think it should work our really well.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/251253.jpg

I may have to grind a little off of the side of the brake pedal. I have wide feet, and there is very little room between the brake pedal and the shifter hump. Just trimming off the right side of the brake pedal should allow adequate clearance for the throttle pedal and should make for great heel/toe action. The guy that is making my throttle pedal it heading to the Daytona 24hr race, so that will be a little bit before it gets here.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/251254.jpg
Jason

lookin good :agree:

You're not afraid that it will bend the sheet metal where the bracket is mounted by hard braking?? Or that there will be "movement" in the bracket by hard braking?

Wiebrand

If I where you I would add two bolts in the "other" end of the bracket, all the load would "twist" the two "bottom" bolts that you got now.

Sorry if you don't understand me, I'm from Sweden you know ;)

edit. Btw, your build is BADASS :D

If you guys read the captions for the pictures, you'll read that it's not finished. This thing will be PLENTY strong. No flexing, no bending. The pictures are just to show the location and type of bracket that is fabricated. The point is that with only 2 bolts this thing is in position, and with the addition of one more bracket, you can install aftermarket pedals by only drilling a couple of bolt holes instead of hacking out half the dash.

I think what is kind of cool is that the remote balance bar adjuster will work so well there as well. When all is said and done I'll fabricate a cover so all the brake system guts aren't exposed.


Jason

I've read almost everything you have posted about the car and have no doubts that this will be as good as the others!

Just pointed it out ;)


ps. I read all of it and must have missed that it still was under construction :sleep: ds.

I also had read everything.. but Then just overread it..

WHOOPS... :rolleyes:

WIebrand

No problem! I'm glad to have some good guys like you to keep an eye on me! It's nice to know I can't screw up too bad before someone will let me know. Keep up the good work!

Jason

^^better save then sorry. :laugh:

but it looks not convertible to brake like that but i can be wrong

I think something must be getting lost in the Babblefish translation. Maybe I should just be posting the finished product and not the build up.

IT IS NOT FINISHED. When it is done it will be very safe and very strong.

Jason

looking good

just an idea instead of going up to the dash again for the front mount maybe mount it into the wheel wells. a lateral bar spaning the two. this way if you wanted you can make it double as a shelf like cover it with one of the bambo/straw shelfs = very sleeper :)

I really like that idea, but as you can see from the pics I've got speaker pods in there that I really don't want to have to redu. As well, the bar would be a definate shin breaker in a severe accident, and would also be a heck of a lot heavier and require more holes to be drilled. I do think if I had a full cage that is EXACTLY what I'd do though.

I got these high strength stainless T-bolt clamps from a local hydrolics place. I'm planning on using both of them on the steering column to clamp a bracket onto it. I should have the whole thing done this weekend, so look for some new pics then.

Jason

Finally figured out what sort of bracket would be the lightest, easiest, and strongest.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/252563.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/252565.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/252566.jpg

Jason

I got a little carried away with the weldling, as I havn't got the MCs in there yet and there may be a small clearance issue. It's possible I'll have to do just a regular piece of bar, not the one with the fancy holes, as there may need to be some grinding to clear the MC.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/252567.jpg

Here's the J-bolt clamps. Apparently these are very strong and I'm using 2 just in case one were to fail.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/252570.jpg

Jason

Looks great Jason! :agree:

nice solution. :agree:

Finally got the master cylinder. Was supposed to get 2, but as usual there was an order mix up. But I was able to install it and I JUST have enough clearance between the MC and the bracket.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/261899.jpg

These are the rotors I'm planning on using. Just over 12" in diameter and .83" thick.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/261900.jpg

Here is the new MC at home.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/261903.jpg

Jason

Superb quality. :cool:

Keep the updates coming.

Really nice looking... One question though

Is it going to be legal with the M/Cs there? I believe its a safety matter thats why im asking. In Europe this would make the car illegal, since the driver can hurt himself ( that would be by impact on the knee area during an accident) on some part of the vehicle ie extruding parts from the under dash


Chris