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#1
November 24th 2005, 05:02
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As the thread-starter, I feel that it is okay for me to reel the discussion back to its original premise. In the meantime, I hope we are having lively debates and not headed into anything mean-spirited.
First off, I have already made the changes in brakes and suspension. There may be an eventual tweak I want to do but that is so far down the road from here it's not even funny. Second, I am not looking for crazy horsepower and I am not looking to being the biggest bad cat around. I do want plenty of giddy-up should I need it from a stand-still. And I want plenty of power so the only thing separating me and some other driver is the difference between me and that other driver (unless he chooses to drive an underpowered beast). I do like the power curve of my stock engine; I just don't like how low it is. If it is doubled to tripled at the wheels, I would be desiring about 100-130 HP at 4100 RPMs and 140-200 LB-FT of torque at 2700. I do not know an assembler of a Type 4 engine much less a good one. And that's regardless of price. My long-time mechanic is willing to install whatever I decide on getting as long as it does not require fabrication. And they (at the shop) are willing to do any fixing or regular maintenance it would need. They are not willing to assemble anything, however. My mechanic is willing to put me in touch with someone he knows who builds Type 1 engines. He has enough faith in this guy as a builder (and, perhaps, me as an anal retentive owner) he would back up that work with a year's guarantee. I have not met with this cat yet so I appreciate the suggestions being bandied about as far as other builders of Type 1 engines are concerned. (By the way, I happened to be at the Gene Berg site on another issue and wandered into the "engines" page. I did not see a 2110 listed. Perhaps that is because they are into the drag racing scene and a 2110 is not the best option for their typical customer.) Anyone doing a search on my posts here and elsewhere (or possessing a strong memory) knows I had sort of thought a 2270 T4 was going to be my Super's engine. There are reasons I am starting to waver on this plan. None of those reasons have anything to do with a loss of respect I have for the T4 engine. I stated in an earlier post within this thread saying "someone" can build it--whatever "it" is--is not workable in my situation. If buying a kit and having someone build it is your best suggestion, I am all ears ... or eyes, I guess. But that someone needs to be named to stay within the parameters of my origianl thread. To be fair, I did not mention having a potential lead on a T1 builder because (a) I still haven't met him, and (b) I wanted a fair fight between the T1 and T4 and any other solution offered. So far, there have been three or four T1 builders mentioned and recommended. While a 2056 T4 was suggested, no builder was attached. The only builder I know is Jake, and I already posted excerpts of potential pricing with that route. (An interesting aside, I posted the question of alternative builders of T4 engines over a year ago at another site. Some bird brain there chided me about doing a search--as if I hadn't done it already. A year later I revisited that thread still without an answer. And I still didn't get one--even from the know-it-all bird brain.) Again, I am doing a ballpark figure with the 8k. I have to see how my money turns over to know for sure what that figure is going to be. I think I know what I am going to do if that figure is higher or lower. Eight thou seems to be the figure that puts me in turmoil. I have said before and I will keep repeating it as it applies ... I appreciate all of the responses. I am absorbing it all. 
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#2
November 24th 2005, 07:27
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This topic reminds me about Ducati's....Seems like everybody on the planet that doesn't own them states "Valve adjustements every 3K miles....they're just too much/high maintenance..." Yet, the people that really own them find it's not as hyped up as people make it to be.....
I know Jake, you stated quality, or lack thereof of the Chinese cranks....but if it's not broke...... This isn't to say they aren't crap, but if multiple people are using them, and are having no issues, who really cares? Based off of the 4 people I know PERSONALLY(seems like everybody these days goes off internet "I knows") that have stroker T1's, all of them have nothing BUT a reliable motor. When I say reliable, I say no major issues. They don't even do the much heated valve adjustments. Most have electronic ignition, but even still have no electrical issues. Cars start right up, and is just like any modern day engine and recieve no attention that any other engine wouldn't recieve, except it's air cooled. Of them 4, 2 of them had a Serrano engine. One had misc built pieced motor, lots of Autocraft parts, assembled by a local shop, and the other guy, I dunno where he got his motor/tranny from, but it was somebody out in cali, where he now moved back to. As far as the Porsche comment...I don't really think that's an arguement, more as it is a statement. As most people can and would drive a 911 if truly given the option, but it's not that....it's something totally different that drives you to do what we're doing...kinda like that ricer who drives a $50K Civic. It's faster than a Vette, and hell, he dropped all $50K at one time, yet, he'd still rather drive his Civic. I think this topic is making some great points. Like stated in other threads, having the AC motor in the bug is what more or less seperated the Beetle from everyother little ecobox car with a huge motor. Although, it's a blanket statement, most of it holds valid except the out of box great chassis that the bug has. Most Ecobox cars don't have the handling STOCK that bugs do... But what it boils down to, is how dedicated to wanna be to it. Even if you don't wanna be "the top dawg", everybody wants the most for your money. Are you really willing to drop that many thousand dollars on an aircooled motor, especially a TIV if the most uneconomical choice (pricewise) of the bunch, just to say you're staying true to the ACVW GL? I mean like stated, that's alot of dough to be dropping just to stay aircooled. To put it into perspective. The COVETED Type R motor with low miles INCLUDING tranny, ECU and wiring harness is ballpark $5K. That's 200HP straight out of the factory box with low miles and Honda "beat the **** outta me and I can still take more" reliability. All OEM from the factory, so you have a completely stock 200HP motor. Granted, if you drop that into a Civic, it won't be as fast as a Bug with a $5K/200HP worth of motor in it, but the point is, that guy with a Honda spent $5k for a complete package. I mean hell, even the V8 guys are spending only $5-9K on a V8 crate motor and getting 500-800HP... They might be getting "cheap parts", but thier motor is just as reliable and is running the same HP numbers/times at the track as the guy with the $20K GM Factory performance engine who wanted to stay true to his roots/pay for the R&D..... Last edited by oicdn; November 24th 2005 at 07:31.
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#3
November 24th 2005, 13:47
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Sorry again and again Oasis and all of you guys for creating quite a stir. I really admire your work: you are building dream cars. I'm thinking Jak Riz, El Rookie, Superman, Oicdn, 73notch, etc etc.
I'm gratefull because this thread made me think again and I have changed my mind on the whole thing. For me German Look is about taking the most of a beetle and giving it modern technologies while keeping a vintage Ferdinand Prorsche spirit. You've got to be careful not to change it more or less into a kit-car... chevy engie, rx-7 brakes, 944 rear suspension, 993 5-speed trans, etc etc. A Beetle must stay a Beetle. Herbie as a Nascar racer is stupid. I think I'm gonna go medium T1 probably a 1914cc, swing axle, 4 speed with a good chassis preparation for a vintage track racer such as what Porsche did with the 356 and 550 back then. Stay true to Aircool (even though I love the sound and performance a suby can offer for the price) and push the beetle to it's reasonable limits: just to have fun driving it (It doesn't mean that I don't want to be able to outhandle or beat any little ricer with they caps backwards: I DO. And I will need your support and help to achive that). Final words: I don't believe these car were meant for 200hp. and Civics are not meant to be drag racers.  With all my respect -Kleinporsche (it mean small porsche in german Wally) Last edited by kleinporsche; November 24th 2005 at 14:16.
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#4
November 24th 2005, 14:07
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Quote:
The original beetle was only meant for 24,5 hp and not 50hp, but volkswagen themselves evolved the bug into a better bug each model year. See what we do as catching up of VW's halted R&D over the years... Starting to see what I mean? Now, thats the german style/spirit...  Oh, and I really know the german language quite well actually ( as I double as a mod on a german forum as well )
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#5
November 24th 2005, 19:25
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I am only going to say this once,for you to build what is know as a reliable t1 engine you will have to buy parts along the line of autocraft ( expensive ) , gene berg ( expensive ), pauter ( expensive ). What jake is saying is that a t4 2ltr engine can be built from 2.0l to 2.4ltr using the stock crank and be very reliable. Elroocky on this forum ran a 2.4ltr t4 motor in races for 8 years now that motor is in a daily driven bug he says not once have they pulled the block. Jake has taken a 1.7ltr t4 motor and turned it into a 3.0 monster.
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#6
November 24th 2005, 20:29
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Quote:
Other then the Gene Berg Shifter, Intermediate Mount & IDA stacks, most Gene Berg Parts are over priced and unnecessary to have a realiable motor. Nor do you need Pauter parts. You can build a realiable T1 motor with CB Performance, Scat, Demello and plenty of other well know companies. One more thing, a T4 motor doesnt have to cost you over $10000 to be good either. This isnt rocket science. This is motor building. There is a point where it just isnt worth spending the extra $1000's of dollars just to make it a little better when you can get a damn good motor for thousands less with out all the extra upgrades that may or may not make it a little more realiable.
__________________
WinterJam 2010: Vdub, Surf, Skate & Musis Fest WinterJam 2010 'I drive way to fast to worry about cholesterol!' '67 Sunroof Notchback * '68 FI Squareback
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#7
November 24th 2005, 23:13
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First off I would like to appoligize to the thread starter, Oasis, because I will be taking my post on a tangent. About a year and half ago there was a kid on here by the name mystical, who had a opportunity to purchase a mullholland look super for cheap(I wonder why
 ). I guess he was in the tuner scene and wanted to get the most out of the car for autocross or something. He had never owned a older VW before so this was his first project. Needless to say lots and lots of questions, and i think he thought you could take a cheap bug and make it badass very easily. To make a short story long, he didn't live far from me so I showed my old '72 Super that at the time was under construction.What we're, the GL community,doing can only be described as insane. A GLed VW is a economy car turned into a super car, you can't just bolt some parts on it and be done with it. This is accomplished after many months, I dare say years in my case, and the only way one continues on this hurdle course is to have a incredable love for this car. Who else would spend so much time researching, running down the "right" parts for his vision, the countless long hours of fabricating, and the money that is required for this project of projects. Now a car like Alex's old split, which in my mind is the ultimate GL, would you just spend a few thousand on a cheaply built T1, hell no you don't. You put the biggest baddest muther fukker that will fit in it, and that my friend is going to cost some serious cheddar. I'm working on a budget, I'm cutting as many corners as I can and still have a quality GL. With all the help of my VW friends I'm still looking at least $7K in the car total, thats the car, lil pussy disc brakes, a stock 2L T4, 901, paint, cage, and tuner rims. Who the hell would buy a '71 Super Beetle in California for $7000? Only somenone who is insane would, if you want to look at it on paper. There is a feeling that get when you drive around in something that should be, but is because you built it. I want that feeling, I will keep at this through hell and high water. I sleep, live, and breathe this stuff. As far as the cost of powerplants go why don't you ask some of the guys on here who have spent big bucks on a engine ask if they were to do it again would they go that route. Also ask the guys running the EJ's or the ecotec's if they are glad they did it. Me I'll run the 2.0L for a while and put a EJ in my 914 and see how I like it before I start to cut up my 1302. The good thing about GL is you can run whatever engine you want in your car, run whatever brakes, tranny choice it doesn't matter as long as you are getting the most gains. Me personally I see zero advantages in a swing axle, but there are a couple of guys wanting to go there, whatever I won't knockem. Sorry bout the length, Nick
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#8
November 25th 2005, 11:32
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oasis, talk to No_H2O if you want one of jake's kits assembled. i am betting he would be up for it since your schedule would be fairly flexible and he knows the stuff well. you won't find a more honest and reliable person too.
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#9
November 25th 2005, 15:50
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Zen has an excellent idea...
As far as thre 4 cylinder 911 engine goes: They start at 22K and if it breakes EVERY part has to be purchased from the man himself.. If you want to create a car thats no longer a true VW- install a radiator.. VuJade- I don't know who pissed in your cornflakes, but your comments are just about to piss me off.... Your discounting of what goes into one of my engines is about as far off base as a foul ball... Quote:
__________________
Jake Raby
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#10
November 25th 2005, 16:14
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Quote:
 Quote:
-Ryan
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www.subynotch.com Last edited by 73notch; November 25th 2005 at 16:24.
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#11
November 25th 2005, 16:59
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Quote:
Do you have a persecution complex or something? Why would you think that statement was about you? All I said is that he doesnt have to spend $10,000 to have a reliable motor. He could build a reliable T4 for $5000. It may not have all the latest innovations, but it will still be a reliable motor. *I hope that clears this up for you. Quote:
my options and had mine built by someone I thought was reputable and would do a good job for a fair price. Quote:
I didn't appreciate you slamming me on STF forums either. That was total BS and was uncalled for. You weren't even part of that thread, nor was it about you, but you stuck your nose in it and told me to shup up!
__________________
WinterJam 2010: Vdub, Surf, Skate & Musis Fest WinterJam 2010 'I drive way to fast to worry about cholesterol!' '67 Sunroof Notchback * '68 FI Squareback
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#13
November 25th 2005, 20:28
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Maybe its just me, but you like your cars, and i like mine. Theres things that i like and things i dont like. I think the thing that makes a VW a VW is that its so modular. You can put almost anything in it and its still going to be a volkswagen.
Theres more to the beetle than just an air cooled engine. What about that beetle smell? or the fenders and body lines? How about those damn floor pans and heater channels? In the end, its still going to be my car and im going to do whatever i choose to with it. If i want a volksrod, its going to be a volksrod, or baja, or GL, or restoration
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#14
November 25th 2005, 20:31
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I can assemble one of Jakes type 4 kits for you. Please do some looking at the difference between the Type 1 and Type 4. I think once you see the improvments made with the type 4 you will want one. The flywheel to crank joint, the thru bolts vs studs, torque curve, etc. Granted the cooling conversion is a bit more costly and the exhaust is just a little more but not as bad as it once was thanks to Jake and Tiger at A1. Jake is working on an even cheaper exheast that will still be made in the USA. :agree:
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NO_H2O 72 1302 Smack Black GL 73 Bus (2L CIS Powered) 66 Beetle, 73 Standard Beetle 72 Pinzgauer 710M Volksport Kafer Gruppe
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