Wishbone suspension bolt on kit

[Alex]

Hi everybody,

there was this huge coil over thread on the STF and I was talking to couple of people about a wishbone setup for a B/J Standard bug. Mark Payne from PaynePrecision is interested in making a setup if there is enough interest. Attached is a rendering of the setup.

Here is the estimated cost of the setup:


ballpark price:

fabricated parts (frame & wishbones ) $550-650
shocks (coilovers) $300-skys the limit
rack and pinion $250-300
heim ends and balljoints $100
----- total $1200-up depending on shock choice

I am very interested in a setup. If you are, please let me know.
The chance is bigger for the setup being made if there are a couple of people willing to buy a setup. It will use stock balljoints and spindles. If I get more infos I will post them here.

I will talk to Mark tonight so give me some feedback. I will discuss some slight changes with him that I think will make this setup more suitable for people with painted cars. I am thinking of changing the rear frame design to accomodate the original wheel well.

Thanks,
Alex

[Alex]

Please post your feedback now.

Alex

[hot66]

looks good :D

I can see it bolts to the frame head where the beam would normally attach. Does the rear of the sub frame bolt to the body mount points?

Is the track going to be stock, or slightly narrowed ?

[Alex]

The track width should stay stock. Since you do not have the trailing arms of the front beam there should be plenty of room for bigger rims and still have a good turning radius.

I will ask about the body mount points but I would think so.

Alex

[Moog]

Hmmm... that looks a bit like mine.... :cool:

[Moog]

and here's the rest... :D

[Alex]

Moog,

did you make it?
Looks very interesting. How about the steering and were does the setup mount to on the frame head?

More infos please and more pics if possible. Can you still use the stock tank?

Would you duplicate it?
Alex

[Moog]

I must confess that i didn't make it myself. It came from an old UVA kit-car - they originally based it on the VW pan, but evolved it into a tubular chassis with double wishbones up front. They went bust years ago, but this setup surfaced recently on the front of a Buggy, and though i'm in the middle of another project i bought this for when i get back on my serious project.

It's meant to be welded to the front of a tube frame chassis, so will need modding to fit my bug. I intend to cut off the frame head and weld this to the chassis (with some mods done to the frame you see)

The top cross bar interferes with the inner wings and fuel tank, so i thought i'd change it about so that the shocks are inboard and at 45° angle with some rocker levers to actuate them.

The frame you see has mounts for a steering rack, but i already have a steering rack in my bug (It's not a late 1303, its a tosion bar beam with a Renault steering rack) so i'll see what pans out.

When i get on to it i thought i'd try and copy it for a friends Turbo T4 '51 Bug, and may then do some more copies. Don't hold your breath though - it'll be a while before i get on it - i'm trying to mount hidden radiators for my daily driver 2.1 WBX bug at the moment!

[darren]

Excuse the dumb questions but:

What are the advantages of this type of setup?

How would this setup be lowered?

if ya dont ask....... :D

darren

[Alex]

The lowering will be done via a coil over shock. The advantage of this setup is that there is no side movement in the wishbone arms in comparrison to the front beam trailing arm setup.

Alex

[darren]

Thanks Alex

Ok if the kit was a complete bolt on ie. no fabricating required on my part i would be interested.

Would everything bar the shocks be supplied in that price?

[Alex]

Here is some additional information:

We need 10 people who are willing to buy the setup before they will actually make it. This is because of the material cost and work that needs to be put into it and also they need to get a car so that they can make sure that there will be no surprises.
A 25% deposit has to be made. This is for the frame and wishbones only. I do not know how much it would be if you want the entire setup. You can see estimates in the first post. The total of 1200$ and up would include everything.

I am not sure if this is going to fly. I know that a lot of people say they are interested but then when it comes to committing to it they back out.

Unfortunately I am running out of time......I never thought I would say this. I would love to get a setup but I only have until the end of January. That is when my body gets painted. If I could make one myself I would do it but I do not have the skills.

So let me know what you think,

Alex

[ricola]

Damn, this thread has got me thinking again!
It's perfect timing for me really as the Ghia I am building has no front end and I have just restored the pan. I would have it as a purely bolt on solution, no body mods required, although the fuel tank may require lifting on spacers. I was about to buy a new Puma beam but I could chop up the old one as a starting point....

Rich

[Stephen]

why not get a working design together and outsource its production to Australia 55c ~ $1us Thats a good 40% saving landed in the UK or US? I can have a talk to my machinest to see if he'd be interested.

[kdanie]

I like the idea of a double wishbone front suspension and don't want to bust anyones bubble but the suspension design in the picture is not optimal. There is much to designing a front suspension that will work well and for a GL I would want one that would work VERY well. I have just begun learning about suspension design and certainly do not know everything but......double wishbone suspension should have unequal length arms and they must be the correct lengths to give the correct roll center and camber gain, there are some other things to think about but it gets deep quick with things like anti-dive and scrub radius to mention a couple. I think the design pictured would probably ride better than a stock trailing arm but I'm not so sure it would handle much better and that should be the main point (in my opinion).
As I said, I am not a suspension expert, but I believe in learning all I can about things I have an interest in, the same reason I spent almost a year learning about exhaust design before I built my header.
Just my .02, take it or leave it.
ken

[Moog]

Ken,

I agree that the rendered design above is probably not ideal. From my very limited suspension experience ("I had a friend who..." etc...) the wishbones need to be unequal length, and inclined at different angles to get the roll centre in the right place, and get changes in camber as the suspension is loaded, etc. The setup above looks to be equal length and parallel, so there will be no camber change on the wheel as it loads up, i.e just like the standard torsion beam setup.

I have no idea how well my system will work, but it is unequal length wishbones and different inclination angles for the upper & lower wishbones. Whether the rate of change of camber, position of the roll centres is right for a stock-ish weight Bug is anyones guess...

Moog

[Alex]

Keep it coming guys....
every input is welcome.
We have decided to build the first one. So every input that you can make could be integrated.
BTW...

Mark and I already discussed some changes.
Alex

[dobergoose]

What are you guys gonna use for uprights?

[Alex]

You have to explain the term "uprights" to me.

English is my second language.

Alex

[dobergoose]

By Uprights I mean the part that ties the wishbones together at the end and mounts the brake etc on

[Alex]

We are going to use the stock disk spindle...if that is what you mean.

Alex

[dobergoose]

yeh thats what I ment

Have you looked into using the uprights from a porsche 928 that way you can bolt on big brakes at the same time

[Alex]

I already have modified stock spindles for my 993 TT calipers.
If this will get sold as a bolt on kit I think it would be good to use as many stock parts as possible because not everybody will use big Porsche brakes. This way you are able to use CB or Kerscher brakes as well.
At the moment we are still trying to figure out the final design.
My problem is that my caliper brakets are pretty big which will limit the wishbone design.

I will post a new rendering as soon as I get it.

Alex

[volkdent]

I had the same concerns as kdanie regarding the design that Mark at Precision Products has worked up. I shared these views with him, but I don't think that is the direction that he wants to go. Simon at Red9 design has also worked up a design that is more along the lines I was thinking. Check out the Shop Talk Forums German Look section under I think Double Wishbone suspension and he has posted a 2d view of his idea there.

Jason

[volkdent]

To Amend:

The design I'm trying to pull off involves not having to split the body and pan or scratch any paint, so Alex, there isn't really any time constraint here!

[Alex]

Jason,

Your frame design has to be a two piece then that needs to be bolted together. There is not very much room in the wheel well cut out and between the frame head and body. The other thing is that the wishbones are to far back....too close to the frame head which could lead into the wishbone touching the lower tray under the frame head that extends out at the edge. I am not too sure were the spindle sits in height.....I have to check on my pan.
The best design I have seen so far is the one that Martin "dobergoose" has on his pan although the frame head is gone. I talked to Mark and he will make some changes on his design. If you have no frame work in front of the frame head you can not bolt on the body to the front unless you make some brackets for it.
There are a couple of pics in the Suspension gallery of Martin's setup and a wishbone that Remmele made for his blue racer.
If you want post your design as an attachment.

Alex

[volkdent]

I've been digging around under the car again! Alex, you're correct, it will be at least 2 pieces, maybe 3 for the actual frame the A arms are connected to.

Another point, this set-up will be for maximum handling, so, though for most it will already be the case, this will be for lowered vehicles only. As you've already noticed, unless the splindle is situated higher, the lower arm will be hitting the tray.

To keep VW, the steering rack will probably be Rabbit or Golf, with or without power.

If you want to keep your height stock or higher, then I thing Payne Precision's front end will be the way to go. But I think that design downplays the handling potential of the A arm set up.

Jason

[ricola]

Just to show I'm still thinking about it. Here's a pic of my sketching so far. I might be able to keep the stock steering with a modified drop link to keep things simple. I haven't thought much about the frame, the main problem is to clear the tie rods and that's hard to visualise before the wishbone positions are set.

One thing that is becoming clear is that it will be optimum for a particular ride height. What height are most people running here?

Rich

[kiwivw]

Spent sometime this weekend looking through some hot rod mags. As you do :)

Rich, i think you're on the right track, nearly all of the aftermarket stuff shows un-equal length arms, with the lower arm holding the shock and the chassis connector holder the upper shock mount.

Cheers
Craig

[volkdent]

Rich,

You've noticed that the system has to be height range dependant. I think your idea is great for a stock height application and would be a little more straightforward. What do you have in mind for steering?

Jason

[ricola]

Looking at it I think I may be able to make a new drag link for the steering box which is bent downwards. This would drop it below the level of the upper wishbone. Possibly flipping the orientation of the inner tie rod ball joints. I would prefer to also use a bump steer kit to lower the tie rods but, as Alex mentioned, big calipers would no longer fit. I may also have to lengthen the lower steering arm to pull it back from the coil-over unit which would have the effect of increasing steering rate. Would people want this?
Otherwise, a rack is the other solution but would involve mods to column etc etc.

Why do you think my idea is good for stock height? I still have to determine wishbone locations, probably raising the lower pivot point above the pan, although this would make the frame more complicated unless the pan was cut for clearance. Is this an option people would be happy with?

Rich

[volkdent]

That's my point Rich, the way you have mounted the bottom arm under the pan is ideal for stock applications, but if you get really low, you'll be banging the lower arm against the tray under the MC. Unless the arms are short with the mounting points moved farther out, I think there will have to be 2 versions, a lowered one and a stock on. Heck, we can even make a raised one for all those Baja guys!

Jason

[volkdent]

Here's a peek at what I'm working on with Simon at Red9 design.

[kiwivw]

Dos this setup keep the front frame horns and wheel locations (they look like they may sit a little further back than stock)?

[Shad Laws]

Hello-

I _love_ the idea of double wishbone front suspension!

However, before you decide to take deposits or begin fabrication design, you may want to go to the bookstore and purchase some books on suspension design. There is a LOT of math involved in a good suspension design! Realizing that you need unequal length arms is simple compared to the complex geometry involved. There's no rush - spend a week or two reading little bits of the book at a time and understanding what's going on. Good technical books aren't easy to read quickly :-). Then, armed with the new knowledge, go back and attack your design problem. Determine if what you are picturing will give what you want or not.

Remember: if done properly (as the math will show), handling will be greatly increased. If done improperly, you'll end up worse than when you started.

Take care,

[Alex]

Mark has done suspensions before and has a racing background.
He also has computer programs fpr suspension setups that do the math.

There is no need to pre-order. One will be made for me and then you can see if you like it or not and as soon as my car is ready you will get a full report on how it handles.

Alex

[ppp]

could someone give me an average measurment from the bottom of the pan to the ground at the framehorn. please specify if you have lowered spindles or not, with around 205/40 tires would be nice.

and could you e-mail me this info payneprecision@hotmail.com

many thanks....Mark.

[Ron Roberts]

For a price perspective:

$1200.00 Total
($300.00) Shocks
=$900.00 Total (without shocks)
($800.00) Apprx. price for standard balljoint front end,
Spindle to spindle, including debatable TWX steering
box.
=$100.00 difference in price.

The cost redeeming side of the VW set up is not needing as expensive shocks as the coil overs. I guess since these front ends do not come with springs (other than the shocks) It s not fair to deduct the $300. This brings the difference to $400. Now you still have to buy shocks for the VW front end, so lets subtract $150 for some Bilsteins and call it a day. Now we are at $250 additional for Alexes front end compared to VW.

Ron

[volkdent]

Can anyone think of a production car the has A arm front suspension? Must be Metric!
Thanks

[volkdent]

I've settled on a Golf II non powered steering rack, and '86+ Porsche 928 spindles, 3 series BMW lower control arms, and very custom upper control arms. All the parts are finding their way here as we speak! I also have a couple of 17" rims coming so I can mock the whole thing up.

Jason


(edited 09/30/2005-- Obviously I had my head in my A$$ at this point, once I got a good look at my M3 lower control arms and the fact that the control arms have to be exactly the right length to go with the steering rack and overall track, this was not a good option at all. JF)

[volkdent]

And the rack

[kiwivw]

Volkdebt, any progress on this over the break?

[volkdent]

No progress as of yet Craig. I've got my Jetta up on blocks waiting for its tranny to return. I like to keep the M3 inside too, so I'm out of space till the Jetta is back together. I did buy a book on suspension design however, and have made a few more good contacts to work out the suspenion details.

Jason

[ricola]

Something to wet your appetites!
http://www.ricola.co.uk/wishbone_pics/wish_new_old.JPG
Progress is coming on nicely. Design work done, just the making now!

Rich

[kiwivw]

Just found this on the new volksrods forum:

http://server5.ipshosting.com/~volksrod/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=479

Seriously nice :)

Cheers
Craig

[ricola]

Nice if you want Ford cortina brakes and the wheelbase extended by 6"...

[Ross Morrison]

Hello everyone.
Ricola, a double "A" arm suspension design using the stock VW steering is madness.
Why go to the trouble of designing something that you think will work, then try and use something that clearly WILL NOT work.
The whole front end should be designed as a unit.ALL the parts have to work in unison.
Think of the bump steer you are designing in.
There are certain "musts" as far as suspension systems are concerned, with w/bones the inboard mountings of ALL the moving parts(upper bones/lower bones/steering arms) MUST be aligned.
Look at the arc of the long arm on the VW box setup.
Look at the arc of the arms on the pic you have posted.
It should be obvious it won't work.

Sorry my first post is a negative one, but this is a serious mod that has to be thought out properly.

Cheers,Ross.

[pure55vw]

I noticed the stock steering as well and it could be a problem(hopefully that's just a "mock-up"). How about an idler-arm type steering (like early super-beetle)? You could gut an old steering box, attach your own pitman arm, mount the box on the other side of the tube, like the stock box, and connect them with a link that equal length tie rods would attach to. You could also adjust the linkage to get your Ackerman right. You'd also keep the stock steering shaft. I considered this on mine (see suspension pictures gallery), but decided to stick with R&P. Rest of the setup looks great!

[Ross Morrison]

Where is the link to the gallery?

[Alex]

Ross,

the gallery is on the main page.
Click the link at the bottom of every forum page www.germanlook.com and it will bring you to the main page.
On the left you will see all the different galleries.

Alex

[ricola]

Don't worry Ross, I don't plan on using the stock steering box. I was just evaluating how bad the bump steer would be but it is a no go. The ideal situation I was looking for was one which didn't need column mods. I don't know what you mean by 'aligned', but A arms should not be parallel on a road car for the best compromise.
I have found a steering rack of the perfect length now which will eliminate bump steer with proper location.
Starting with a blank sheet of paper and no front end would be the easy option, I want to develop a bolt-on module...
I was concentrating on getting the wishbone geometry correct first with the correct camber curve on CAD with a link model. For the steering it is easier to quickly mock it up than measure all the VW dimensions to the required accuracy and then model them.

Rich

[Ross Morrison]

Ricola, what I mean by aligned is, that if you were to draw an imaginary line through the top and bottom wishbone inner pivot points,(as viewed from the front),the pivot of the steering rack arms MUST be intersected by this line.
The other thing is.......why keep the front beam?
It is dead weight.I understand the need for a bolt on remedy, but if you are redesigning the front end ,you may as well do away with the factory parts and start from scratch.

[volkdent]

Are you working on Martin's car? If your the man, we are glad to have you here. I'm copying you to a degree and just havn't got around to saying Hi yet. I've talked with Martin many times regarding what you guys are building. I have 86+ 928 spindles and a Golf II non-powered rack thus far, I was going to use the 65ET Cup II wheels, but its seems they are a rare item, so I'm going with the 52ET.

To comment on why keep some of the stock beam the Rich is using and keeping it bolt on, it means that someone can actually buy or build one of these things and simply bolt it onto their car. Not everyone has the facility or know-how you do, but they might have the cash, so they can buy a known quantity and bolt it on with little knowledge of what is involved in building a good suspension from scratch. I'd like to see what you came up with if you took this approach, as I'm sure it would be excellent.

While I'm writing, Martin said you used a Volvo top balljoint for the spindle, do you remember which model, or do you know of other balljoints that will fit into that top spot? I'm thinking about using a modified BMW M3 lower control arm on the bottom with the 928 lower ball joint, and then a very custom top arm with whatever balljoint will work.

I have to ask you, will you be reinforcing that front end on Martin's car? It looks pretty torsionally weak right now.

Jason

[Ross Morrison]

Hi Volkdent,
I have done some drawings on the "keeping the frame head" theory. It just wasn't happening. As you will be aware, the 928 upright has a very low mounted steering arm. To get any kind of decent steering arrangement in and around the tunnel part of the chassis was impossible.
I accept that using VW spindles means something could be made to work, but we weren't.........so I didn't!
If I was doing a "bolt-on " assembly, I would still lose the front axle.

Martins' front end still has alot of work to be done to it.
The box frame has to be tied into the cage, the shock supports are part of this, although I was looking into remotely mounting them and using bellcranks.
All the bracketry for the wishbone supports have to be closed
up,steering arms made,petrol tank mounts, inner wing mods, etc..etc...etc.
It will be worth it in the end.


p.s.........I think it was Volvo 340. I will check.

Ross.

[ricola]

Ross, I was trying to have a look at your site, (http://www.rmrrestorations.co.uk/) is it down at the moment? Would love to see progress on that rod with 928 V8 and your Ghia.
That's the advantage for the bug spindle with the high steering arm, although some 928 spindles had a bolt on arm which I would think could be modified although I didn't look into it in detail.
As for using the original centre section of the beam, for making a bug handle you would need some weight up front to get a bigger balance, making it lighter would just make things harder to tune! Picking up on points on the chassis which were designed to take these loads seems an obvious solution to me. Particularly in the case of my speedster, I need all the weight up front I can get, although I won't go as far as actually adding sand bags:D
Rich

[Ross Morrison]

Rich, yes the site is GONE!
Hard disc failure on the server or something. My mate is going to redo it when he comes up to Glasgow.

The 928 '34 Ford hasn't changed much. I have been concentrating on the Ghia and my new Chevy truck.

I will post pics of the Ghia as soon as I get the new bodyshell.(100% carbon fibre)

Ross.

[volkdent]

Hey Ross,

I can't remember which year 928 spindles you used, but the ones I own have bolt on steering arms. With that in mind, I'm going to have new ones machined that have the pivot point way up high like the Bug ones so I can eliminate bump steerwhile having the rack over the top of the shifter tunnel. I suspect they will be quite expensive, but I do have a couple of master machinist friends that might be able to help me out. I know what you are talking about, using the stock 928 steering arms puts the steering rack right about dead square in the middle of the frame horn.

What kind of ETA do you imagine for finishing Martin's car anyway? How much did those rear bearing carriers cost to machine?

Cheers,

Jason

[Ross Morrison]

Volkdent,
Martin got a real bargain with those rear hubs.The guy quoted on the job without really looking at what was involved! I think it was about £50 each.($80)

ETA on his car? Mmmmmmmmm..............this year.:))

I considered unbolting the 928 arms and changing them, but be careful , there are Ackermann issues involved.Depends on which amendment to the principle you work to.
Another thing is to try and use a wheel with the same ET as factory.This helps with the KPI situation.

What rack are you using? How wide is it?


Cheers,Ross.

[volkdent]

I'm using a non-powered Golf II rack that has a rack length of 21" so I suspect 22-23 balljoint to balljoint center.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the axis of the outer tie rod ball end stays in exactly the same axis as original, and the tie rod itself is relatively parallel to the control arms, and the inner ball joint on the rack has an axis that dissects the plane between the upper and lower control arm's inner pivot points, things should fall into place OK. I'm just theorizing here, because nothing I've read yet in suspension books deals with creating your own spindleIchanging the spindle steering arm pivot point).

What I have worried a little bit about is the brake caliper thickness causing me to make the new steering arm end pivot axis in a slightly different axis than the original. I don't know what that would do, and though I know moving it toward the the axle will increase my steering rate obviously, I don't know what other stuff will change.

Jason

[Ross Morrison]

Jason,
YES, having all the inboard pivot points co-axial is what you are aiming for to eliminate bumpsteer.
If you are going to fabricate new steering arms for the Porsche hubs, if you put them up high, then you use a wider rack.If you put them low then the rack can be narrower. This is because the axis of the pivots should narrow from top to bottom.
You are making the top arms shorter aren't you???
I would advise making all your arms in scale, or full size, in cardboard, then pin them to a board. Make a very accurate representation of the Porker upright, attach all the bits with pins, and then run it through it's full travel. You should be able to vary all the inner points and see what difference it makes to camber in bounce and droop.
You will notice the steering arms on the hub are very straight(fore and aft). Why don't you try and change them side to side?
We are using S2 arms and hubs.Are yours S4s?They are slightly different.Don't know if that is do-able.I will need to look at our hubs.
If they can be changed side to side,this will put the rack in front. You would then need to find a front steer rack, or get a RHD one and flip it.
With the arms being so straight,I don't think this would have any effect on the Ackermann.
I will look at Martins at the weekend and see if this is feasible.

Cheers,Ross.

[volkdent]

Is there an advantage to front steering? I read in one of the suspension design books that front steer has some advantage when hitting a bump during cornering. It causes understeer for a split second rather than oversteer and makes the corner seem more comfortable. I could make the steering rack I have work as a front steer rack, but I had planned on rear steer. I had already thought about switching the steering arms, but there will be an increase in length if the same bolt holes are used, slowing down the turning rate, I presume. I will have new front steer arms built to have the correct length IF front steer is better, because it will involve getting a new front steer rack or making the other work backwards. If not, I think I'll stick with new rear steer arms moving the joint up high. Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated, as you have much more experience in this area than I.

Jason

[Ross Morrison]

Jason,
I was just throwing ideas around.
I have never read about those benefits of front steer.
Personally, I like the idea of the rack being behind any uprights, so as to offer some kind of protection in a smallish shunt. At least you could drive it home!
I would be interested to see the new arms you get made.

Cheers,Ross.

[volkdent]

www.geocities.com/volkdent/

Click on Conversion

Jason

[Shadowbug]

I have to say, when I first read your idea of upgrading the front suspension I was intrigued but not interested, but I think I may just consider this swap over the next winter.

I currently have a IRS Balljoint pan, and may even upgrade the rear suspension as well If I can get it all to fit under the stock fenders ( I'm not opposed to cutting the body, Though I'd rather not)
and I'd even like to use the stock spindles


Volkdent
what is the rear suspension pictured on your site out of?

[volkdent]

I'm halting on the 928 spindle, as it is causing me a little extra stress right now, but I'll come back to it later. I'm working with the stock BJ spindle right now, and maybe a lowered CB one later.

The rear end you are asking about is a 996 Turbo I believe.

Jason

[Shadowbug]

I may just fab up some equal length A arms using my balljoint spindles, just to see how feasible it is

I've been considering pulling my pan off again and doing a bunch of work to it, but I may just grab another pan (I have a buddy with a VW wrecking yard, I can get a pan for nothing)

make all my mods to it and if it doesn't work out, well I still have my other pan.

[volkdent]

I finally recieved the Karmann Ghia front spindles with rotors drilled for Porsche. This should be an easier starting point. My suspension mentor, Bob Frostick-Stevenson, is back home too, so progress will hopefully continue now. I guess this is why my VW had been my hobby since I was 15! I'm 31 now!

Jason

[Daggis]

How is this coming along?

[volkdent]

Well, there came a certain someone in my life and she's a little more fun than ball joints! Speaking of which though, I finally just found the ones that will work. They are are from a Ford Granada and fit the KG spindle well. So no it's just a matter of taking the time to get all the measurements again then send the data off to Bob.

Jason

[Shadowbug]

hmmm ford granada

been mulling it over, I've decided that the best way to develop a suspension is to just build one, or a couple.

I have access to conduit for cheap so I'm going to build a scale suspension and see how the geometry plays out. if I come up with a setup that I like, I'll go to full size, tack it all together and have a structural welder do the finish welding.

[Ross Morrison]

Hey shadowbug, don't use equal length arms as you wont get much camber change in roll.
If you shorten the top arm it will work better.

[Shadowbug]

The idea is to use unequal length a arms, long as posstible on the bottom.

I'm looking into doing an AWD system so I'll need to use spindles from a front wheel drive vehicle (have been thinking VW golf)

[miller]

Hey what are you gonna use for the AWD system? Are you gonna use a subaru setup? if not what system/

[Shadowbug]

decided that it didn't make sence to build an entirely new chassis when the one I had was more than fine.

I've decided that I'm going to scratch build an entire car (what I've been thinking of doing for quite a while)

Using VW/Audi components

However I'm going to follow the example of one builder out there and build my front suspension so it cal be unbolted and pulled off in a single piece. Should I be happy with the setup I'll build a second one for the beetle. (was planning on staying within beetle dimentions anyway)

[Ephry73]

Just came upon this thread. What is the status of the conversion? Would be very interesting to see how the fit would be on a Ghia. Any news? will be even more interesting if one could use aftermarket spindles as well.




E

[volkdent]

Just came upon this thread. What is the status of the conversion? Would be very interesting to see how the fit would be on a Ghia. Any news? will be even more interesting if one could use aftermarket spindles as well.
E

Because of the shifter shaft tunnel, it is necessary to have a spindle with steering arms that are high. The stock spindles have that, and with all the modifications in brakes you read about in these forums, its really not that bad an option to stick with.

As far as my progress is concerned, its slow as usual, but still making progress. Bob is working on calculations right now, though the measurments I feed him are suspect! Currently the setup I'm building uses stock KG spindles with Porsche drilled rotors, Ford Granada tie rod ends as the bottom ball joint, Volvo P1800 lower balljoints in the upper position, non-powered Golf II steering rack, Porsche 993 Cup II wheels. I've just purchased a wrecked Golf II that still runs for $100 for the parts that I'll use for the rear end. (See Audi S3 midmounted thread started by Bobtail)

Jason

[Ephry73]

very cool Jason! sure would love to see the pictures of the progress.



E

[miller]

Have you gotten the a arms leangths settled yet? Are you gonna set it up with long rear arms (as long as possible) that are parellel to the ground. And upper arms that control camber changes? Gonna design in any ackerman steering? Any design updates or ideas would bo good to hear. Im kinda in the process of figuring out a double a-arm suspension so its nice to talk about design and whatnot with somebody that has more experience in the issue.

[volkdent]

It's funny, I'm lying in bed thinking about emailing Bob in australia regarding the width of the track. I get online, and there's an email for me, telling me to check out the wishbone thread, and the question is arm length! I guess my ears were burning. So, the answer is no. There are a million variables that I'm kicking around in my mind. And a couple of projects, but it is getting close I'd say. Within the next month. Check in soon.

Jason

[Shadowbug]

this is my debate.
the only reason for going with unequal length arms is for camber compensation,
if one was more interested a more fexible suspension set up than the paralel trailing arm suspension of the beetle, equal length A arms could be the ticket, and geometry would be much easier to figure out.

However thre are resources out there for scratch built suspensions like this. I've been frequenting the "Locost" forums for the last little while, and most of the information and design of these suspensions revolves around track cars and such. better handling means a lower time.

If I were to follow this logic through, I might as well srap my beetle and build a one off race car, because it'd be lighter, therefor better handling. Not really what I want to do, I'd rather have a beetle.

so here's the plan, I'll grab a pan from a buddy of mine (has half a dozen of them) and begin mocking up a front suspension, making use of a simple design and modern components. maybe I'll take a little more time to make it pretty, but strength first.


let you all know when I have some pictures to show you.

[Ephry73]

Would it be better to just start from a new bulkhead altogether? rather than work with the set designed one? use a different gastan(or Porsche one) etc....


E

[volkdent]

The only reason I'm keeping all the stock chassis is that someday I will take it off this bug and put it on another. I want it to bolt on and off, maybe even build kits to sell so others can do the same.

The design I'm working towards also gives space for a radiator WITHOUT cutting body metal, allowing a radiator to be place where the beam used to be.

Jason

[Shadowbug]

I personally think that working from the existing chassis is the best bet, however working around the front framehorn is really limiting, so I intend to cut it off.

once I get the front done I'm going to look into doing the rear suspensiom as well.

Only factor is I don't want to cut the body, pans are disposable (got access to as many as I could want.)

[volkdent]

Shadowbug, got to see some pics for your progress. How bout adding another page to your site?

Jason

[Shadowbug]

got sidetracked by other stuff, currently in the process of incorperating my business
DSS Web Services (http://www.dsswebservices.com/mainpage/index1.htm)

[volkdent]

Progress is coming along so well. All the varaiable seem to be taken care of, and now its down to the final details of bolting to the pan, and I have yet to tackle the link from the steering shaft to the steering rack input shaft, but I'm not to worried. Here's a taste of one of the plans we've been working off.

Front Plate (http://www.geocities.com/volkdent/frontplate.html)

Jason

[Ephry73]

Pictures man, pictures! :D We would love to see the progress as well.


E

[Vincent]

hey i was just browsing the photos over on the Samba and came across this design looks very nice may give you guys some ideas

http://thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=84705

[volkdent]

Look good. I wonder if anyones ever driven it. Nicely done from what I can see.

Jason

[volkdent]

OK, watcha think?

http://www.geocities.com/volkdent/FrontEnd.html

Jason

[GS guy]

Sure looks purdy Jason. I see accommodations for camber adjustment, what about caster? Shims at the inboard upper control arm mount (front to back)?

The angled shock placement - though looking good and in all aspects "classic", results in falling rate on the spring rate, pretty much opposite of what you want. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of ways around it unless you go with a push/pull rod system and rockers like a modern formula car set-up. Just something to be aware of (if you weren't already).
I'm guessing you've worked out the camber curves, what kind of ride height is it optimized for? Any anti-dive incorporated?

Any of the parts off the shelf except for the spindles and ball joints, like the a-arms? How much do you figure it'll cost you to build it, roughly? When I was briefly looking into this for my car I was thinking around $2.5K.
(Sorry for the 20 questions!) :laugh:
Jeff

[Ephry73]

All of the designs look grea. I like the fact that it may also add some weight to the fron of the car as well as more controlled handling. Price, what price? lol



Ephry

[volkdent]

I've asked the designer about the anti-dive and more castor adjustment, but he says that for the travel we are working at, that it really won't be a factor. Apparently anti-dive is for cars that dive, which this one won't. Hot rods with big V8s over the front end and traditional big NA cars may need this, according to him, but this little bug with controlled limited travel won't need it.

I personally would like more castor adjustment built in, as the only castor adjustment now will be by the stock eccentric bushing, but this suspension is designed specifically for my car, so the castor is already dialed into the design. I have a small rake on my car though, so I do wonder if I'll need any more. This is prototype 1.0, so there will be some kinks to work out when it gets on the road I'm sure.

Everything is custom, except for the rack, tie rods and ends, spindles, and balljoints. Once all the kinks are out, I'll be looking into finding parts that might work that are off the shelf, perhaps at a slightly wider track etc.

Jason

[volkdent]

Ooops, oh yah, Cost? what ephry said. I've so far spent about $1100 just designing this thing, so I'm really not counting pennies. I have a pile of spindles, brakes, balljoints, bushings, and a few other things that I've purchased but where discarded as plans changed. I really haven't been keeping score, as it really doesn't matter, the end result is the end result, whatever the cost. I will have the best double wishbone suspension I've ever seen on a AC VW, and it will bolt on, so that says something when there have been a few million of these little bugs running all over the world with people as crazy as me thinking about this possibility.

Jason

[GS guy]

The Mustang II hardware might be of some interest. All the stuff is readily available, nice (Wilwood) brake set-ups, all off the shelf. Some of the parts are a little expensive, depending on who makes and sells, one of the more interesting sites I've come across (from a cost perspective) for this hardware is Speedway Motors:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/default.asp
Click on theit Street Rod products, then down to Chassis and Mustang II suspension and (tubular) controll arms. I know using 'merican products on the old Bug might rub some folks the wrong way - but you can't beat the availability of mass produced parts. This suspension design (and supporting parts) doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon. All you'd need is a custom subframe (like the one you're developing) that accepts the bolt-on tubular MII arms, spindles, brakes, R&P, etc. Having the subframe available allows the user to pick and choose from various manufacturers for the other items. Their complete tubular kit, including rack and (vented) brakes is $1400. Just need the appropriate subframe to attach it to! You have to admit, that would make a nice tidy package. Only drawback I can see is the available bolt patterns - but lots of alternate (non German) rims available. Wilwood might even have a blank hub and rotor combo that could be set up for 5 x 130mm. Might have to call it "German Resto-Mod Look". :cool:

Don't get me wrong, one-off is cool and can be beautifully done, but unless you go into production for all the custom items, if one ever needs to replace anything they'd have to start from scratch. I'm doing the same on a rear suspension, all mostly custom. I wish there were off the shelf parts I could use, but the stuff isn't out there. Just thinking out loud - you're custom suspension looks great Jason, definitely looking forward to hearing how it works on the road!
Jeff

[Ephry73]

That sounds very good. I wonder how one can build it at home with just the parts that work(hint) I like the fact that one can turn a standard VW and turn it into something worthy of the German Look name. Plus, being able to add just a little more weight to the front of the car is always a good thing to balance things out.



Ephry

[GS guy]

It sure does sound good Ephry. In fact, it sounds so good I think I've talked myself into doing just that! My car is a tube frame buggy anyway - what's a few more tubes to mount those A-arms! This is a big decision - I'm already heavily invested in an all new Balljoint suspension with all the tricks, custom Wilwood brakes, plated custom drilled & studded rotors, dropped CB spindles, Bilsteins, etc. etc. etc. It's a tough call, I'm going to have to give this some serious thought........ :idea:
Jeff

[Ephry73]

You can always keep the brake setup and such. are the spindles for disc brakes? if so, you may have found a buyer for them already :D



E

[volkdent]

Not to throw a big monkey wrench into this whole thing, but this was discussed before. The problem is getting the roll centers correct and then matching up a rack. If you can work out the correct geometry with those, please let me know, as just getting some hubs redrilled for some metric pattern would be a snap. I still don't like the idea of adding Standard parts to a Metric car, but for the cost savings you probably couldn't argue. Just order them up already!

Pure55 made up his own for very little I'm sure, but if you'll read the "Double Wishbone Suspension" post, you'll read that currently the ride is twitchy at speed. I really admire the work he's put into the whole setup, but unfortunately I think he's going to find that the geometry of the whole setup is what is causing the problem.

Off the shelf works for the products they were built for, not for others usually. I may work backwards once I've got everything lined up, but to work forwards for a pile of parts isn't the way to build a correctly functioning suspension system as far as I can tell.

I'm hoping that in the end this system will be available for sale. Not cheap, but available. Once all the tweaks are done I can make a jig and then reproduce them relatively easily. I'm also aware of someone else who's building a doulbe wishbone setup. Currently he's built a rod style one. It is of tubular construction and should be good.

The reason I'm going with the laser cut plates is space. I'm planning on running a radiator in front of the beam area, but behind the body, with ducting to draw the air through. I need the space under there that a tube style one would take up.

Jason

Jason

[Vincent]

Drawing looks good the only thing i find that may end up being a problem is the lower shock mount. It apears to be welded under the bottom A arm.
http://home.comcast.net/~1badz/frontendproblem.jpg

It seams that this could be a potential weak point would it be better to weld that mount on top of the a arm that weld could break over time when hitting a lot of bumps or pot holes or apex curbs racing.

Just my 2 cent worth might be something to look into.

[volkdent]

The strength is the same whether its on top or on the bottom, so that's really not an issue. As far as hitting curbs there, if that happens to hit a curb, there are many other issue more important than that, for example it will be ripping off the whole bottom of the car. From the ground to that point is at least 6 inches I think, so the suspension would have to be in compression and going over something very bad to be able to hit that. This won't be a rally car, or a hardcore track car for that matter. It's supposed to be a daily driver with autocross or track day potential.

Jason

[GS guy]

Agree on your points Jason - Ideally you start from scratch and work it from the ground up - optimizing roll centers, camber gain, all the important pick-up points and details. Sometimes you can reverse engineer a bit, using off the shelf parts as much as possible - similar to what you're doing with the spindles, etc. Sometimes this works out OK, sometimes it ends up being a hack job just to make parts work together that were never intended to. IMO, it takes a real artist to do this (not that I'm even close!), make it work well and look like it was designed that way - as I'm sure you've found out! What the hey though - I wrote Speedway to see if they'll divulge the A-arm C-C lengths and overall front to back widths, in addition to the OEM track width of the M-II. At least get some idea if it's at all feasible. Model it a little and see if it'll even fit, what the compromises are. At a minimum you'll be converting the car to front steer, which is a pretty significant change in iteslf! That might ease up on those steering shaft u-joint angles though.
Jeff

[volkdent]

Bob, (the designer) has been under the weather lately, and although we are apparently very close to the design being completely finished, the last details are not yet finished so I have to wait till Bob's back on his feet again.

The custom struts for the rear turned into going with the KW Variant III coilovers that fit a MKII body. I wasn't going to have the travel I needed with the modified strut, thus the stock fitment size, so I'm going to have to cut a hole in the top part of the wheel well for the strut to go through to the inner superstructure. Anyway, they showed up and their gorgeous, I can't wait to get this thing on the road!

Jason

[volkdent]

Design is complete now. Next up fabrication.

Front End (www.geocities.com/volkdent/FrontSuspensionAssemblyPartial.html)

[miller]

Looks great. What shock/coil combinations are you looking at?

[tom'72]

This looks very interesting, when do you think it will be ready to sell?

[volkdent]

Shock is currently a QA1 unit, spring to be determined once the car touches terra firma on rubber again and is weighed. I'd like to get an Ohlins remote reservoir one eventually, but I just want to get this thing running first, then I'll spend the even bigger bucks to get the really good stuff.

As far as when to sell, that one is still up in the air. Bob has mailed me a CD with all the files on it, and I just got a call today that for some reason the price of laser cutting the plates went up from $250 to $300 out of the blue, no changes or nothing!

The original estimate was just for the plates, but Bob has included more parts to be laser cut, as they will be far less expensive then if Walt has to custom fab them up.

Jason

[rip]

volkdent what spindles do you plan on using? CB Stock other?

thanks
rip

[volkdent]

Currently the design uses Karmann Ghia spindles, so stock KG. With the same geometry you can use stock drum spindles then to a disc brake conversion. The idea is to keep it simple and use the parts that most cars already have. Using dropped spindles will lower the car more, but the geometry will be off from the ideal the suspension is designed for. As it is, the car will be very low with the current design, you'd be scraping with dropped spindles.

Bob sent me a CD with all the parts of the design on it as well as a 3D model of it. Walt from Walt's Custom Services has it in his hands, and I'm waiting to hear back from him as to what is next.

Jason

[rip]

volkdent (or any one else of course ;) )with all of this homework you've been doing i was wondering if you've run across the difference between the upper and lower ball joints?

On a lot of double wishbone suspensions the lower arm takes the load, and the upper simplily supports the spindle through the motions. But, does this mean that the lower ball joints are made differently. Other than the fact that the mounting of the lower and upper ball joint differs, if they could be interchanged, would it work?

Can one upper balljoint work for anothers lower?

thanks
Rip

[volkdent]

The lower balljoint takes most of the load, its true. The orginal plan for this crazy project was the use of Porsche 928S spindles. The lower balljoints are quite heavy duty, but it IS a V8, and we are working on a VW, much lighter. I had reservations at first, but after reassurances from many sources, I am using the stock VW lower balljoint, and a Ford Galaxy tie rod end for the top one. I have a pair of Volvo P1800 lower balljoints that fit. They are designed for that location, as that car is double wishbone as well. They are a lot more bulky, and the attachement is odd compared to how cleanly the VW one will work. It may have to be changed later, but that's what we've come up with thus far. The VW ones are not interchangable as far as I know, as the top one is longer to go through the eccentric and the thick washer.

Jason

[lazylongboarder]

I really really really really really want this to work and quick! You know not to rush you. I just placed an order with cb performance for my new puma beam, dropped spindles, and other misc. stuff then I read all about this new a-arm setup your building. All i want is the estimated time frame, so just in case I can post pone the front suspension and move to the rear and cancel my order. PLEASE LET ME KNOW IN THE NEXT 24 HOURS or else they'll send my order and you'll lose a customer on this slick concoction (spelling?). :bawling:

[volkdent]

There is at least a couple more months before the actual suspension is built. Then it has to be thoroughly tested and tweaked to make sure its up for sales quality. Then theres the possible rebuilding to be able to produce it more inexpensively and quickly. I'd get let your order carry through, because though its going to be amazing when it's all said and done, given how long it's taken to get this far, I'm not thinking its going to be ready for sale for at least 6 months, maybe longer.

Fortunately, except for the beam, all the parts you'll be ordering now will bolt right up to the final product I'm putting together. What I don't know about is if it will be TOO low for you, as it is currently designed with stock KG spindles, and to be a good low ride height. Also, the dropped spindles may actually create geometry that is detrimental to the performance being designed into the system in question.

Sorry its not ready now, I know that I would have loved to just plunk down the cash for this thing myself, but be warned, this will be a large chunk of change when it is ready for sale as well.

jason

[Troy_Audio]

Jason
This is by far the sickest setup
Iv been dreaming of this day..
I will get 1 for sure.. Thats a nobrainer
So after you make it,Test,Tweak,test,tweak..
You say 6mo or so..
Sounds good ..
whan you say Avalible But not cheap is that in the
$1500-2500 or $2600+
Thanks Man I just want to be the first to send a check
Peace Troy
P.S.
Whats Instore for the rear?

[volkdent]

Hey Troy,

Cost wise I really don't know.

Honestly, I'm just maintaing the energy to actually finish this thing. The idea of making a jig and going through the motions again isn't something I'm thinking about right now. I just want one for me first! It's been a VERY, VERY long haul, and has consumed a lot of my time and money, but once all the kinks are out, it would be much easier to reproduce.

I just emailed the laser cuttting place again, so hopefullly this week I get a quote.

As far as the rear end is concerned, it is currently composed of VW mkII lower control arms and subframe and KW Variant III coilover struts.

Jason

[Troy_Audio]

No biggy
I can only pretend i know what was invalved in this project..
very intence..
With all the prep work & Detail hope you wont have many things to tweak..
Many Thanks Troy

[volkdent]

FINALLY! Yesterday I got a reply from the laser cutter. The quote was $500 for cutting and some press brake work. So, theoretically, a couple of weeks from now I should have many of the parts needed to start fabrication, and I'll be sending everything to Walt to get going on it. Is that a small flicker of light I see at the end of the tunnel?

Jason

[DORIGTT]

And it's a really bright light!

[volkdent]

Just got this file from Bob. It is a 3D model of the entire suspension. If anyone wants to see this thing in real time, drop me an email and I'll send it to you.

You'll need this reader:

http://www.modelpress.com/download.htm

Laser cut parts should be done on Monday, then Walt confirmed he's ready to get started fabbing this thing up.

Jason

[effvee]

Hi, is anyone doing any mod for a super?

[volkdent]

Supers are a simple matter of adding 944 parts to get pretty good handling. I think someone is making new lower control arms.

Jason

[volkdent]

Picked up the laser cut and press brake parts today. $660 and 24.5 pounds. I will be tinkering with the parts this weekend, then off to Walt on Monday to start getting it all together!

Jason

[Mikey]

Great! :)

Pictures! :cool:

[DORIGTT]

Pictures Man! Pictures!

[volkdent]

Someone mentioned pictures? Don't get too excited, these are just the laser cut parts. Fab pictures to come soon, as all the parts are over at Walt's Custom Services now to start fabrication.

Jason

[volkdent]

Well, in one day Walt did all this, so this thing should be done way faster than I thought!

Jason

[tom'72]

Damn, that thing's looking pretty sweet :) hope it drives as good as it looks

[starmember]

nice work. :cool: What expences have you made so far if i may ask. :bowdown:

[volkdent]

Costs:
Design-$1000+
Parts- $700+
Fab- $? still in progress

Having the world's only bolt-on race-designed double-wishbone Type I-

Priceless!

I havn't really been keeping an eye on costs, as it really doesn't matter to me, I just have to get it done! When it's done I'll tally up the actual costs of the final product. Up to this time, I've purchased $100s more of parts, but they've not ended up being used.

Jason

[DORIGTT]

OH MAN! :eek:

The goodies are comin', the goodies are comin'

Nice work! The pictures look great!

Can't wait for the test results and to use my 90% off any purchase coupon that Ferdinand Porsche gave me to buy this set-up.:D

[tom'72]

Maybe everyone that's interested in purchasing this setup should post here so volkdent has an idea of how much he could sell and calculate a price.
I definetely am very interested in the beauty :)

[danielzink]

Count me in as interested also.

Dan

[volkdent]

I have the part in the picture now. I'm going to try it in to make sure everything is as it should be. Just to keep you update on how much you piggybank might be emptied, the ? in the post above is currently running $1600, and I'm about half way done with the fabrication! No arms yet, and they'll take alot of time. I expect it will run at least $2500 for fabrication, probably more.

I think the version that I will end up selling you guys will be a lot simpler and less time consuming to make, so should be a lot less expensive. There are a lot of things that went into the design that are nice, but just so time consuming(read costly) to fabricate that it is ridiculous. For example, I had captive nuts machined to fit into the back of the rear plate, where regular nuts could be used, and the adjusters for camber are very machining intensive, where they could be a simpler design. I'll expect the final product to be somewhere around $3000 for sale, but there will still be some parts that will need to be sourced by the purchaser, for example the universal joints for the steering.

I'll take some pics of the try in.

Jason

[tom'72]

Maybe this was mentioned previously but shouldn't you get a patent on that design to protect all your work and the investment?

[zen]

VERY nice work. looking forward to seeing and hearing more about it. especially as it gets some road time. love seeing people push the boudaries.

[volkdent]

Maybe this was mentioned previously but shouldn't you get a patent on that design to protect all your work and the investment?

Some things just aren't worth patenting. I'm currently working on some non-VW things that will get patented, but the minimum amount is $1000 to patent something. This isn't a new idea, well maybe the bolt on part is, but the general idea is not, and if ANYONE wants to go ahead and build one themselves, they can be my guest. It is complicated enough that not just anyone can build this. Even the other setup that was mention from Eyeball Engineering I believe would require splitting the pan and body. Mine is bolt on with removal of minimum metal, not easily duplicated.

This is a very intensive process and I'm not even sure if I'll like the results yet. I know that it will look cool, but I didn't build it just to look cool, it has to perform amazingly as well. This thing might suck for all its cool looks. I doubt it, but it could! That's why I want to give this thing some serious road time before and a redesign for simplicity before sales come into the picture. The nice thing about ACVW's is that there not new and they never seem to go out of style, so some patience will pay off for those who care to wait.

When the final design is complete, I won't be so showy with it, no 3D models and all that. You could buy one and copy it, but I think someone with some computer smarts could get the plates cut from the 3D model I've offered for current viewing. The trouble is, its still a very costly road to go down. A smart person would just wait till its perfected then shell out the dough.

Jason

[Shadowbug]

Now if I could only get one for my bus.

[volkdent]

Progress has slowed a little bit. One reason is some machining delays, another is a design change. The final design called for new bungs to be machined to replace the eccentrics in the spindles. This proved to be expensive and completely eliminates any castor adjustment. While the designer insists that the castor adjustment is not necessary, with everyone tending to have differerent rakes to their cars, I think it's important, as well as not everything in life is perfect, so adjustability is important.

So, a little change of design delay, then, with new A arm design in hand, Walt should be able to get the arms done in a couple of weeks.

Jason

[volkdent]

Tacked up suspension went in. Turned out it was about 8mm too long front to back, so it has to be shortened. Also, the upper back A-arm pivot was moved forwad 30mm. In the original position, quite I bit of body would have to be removed from the inner fender well. At 30mm forward, the arm should clear the body. There will still have to be a small notch removed from the inner fender well for the tie rod, but it should be much smaller than wheat was needed for the arm clearance. The center section of the suspension JUST goes in with mm to spare, but it fits and bolts up great.

Jason

[DORIGTT]

That's all well and good but I think we need to make sure it fits in my Ghia so that we're sure that all the T-1 cars will be able to use this suspension set-up :laugh:

So let me know when it's been fully welded and I'll arrange for the shipping o.k.?

All kidding aside...It's good to see you still making progress. Have you thought about a test procedure to evaluate the change in handling/ride/cornering capability etc?

[rip]

Tacked up suspension went in. Turned out it was about 8mm too long front to back, so it has to be shortened. Also, the upper back A-arm pivot was moved forwad 30mm. In the original position, quite I bit of body would have to be removed from the inner fender well. At 30mm forward, the arm should clear the body. There will still have to be a small notch removed from the inner fender well for the tie rod, but it should be much smaller than wheat was needed for the arm clearance. The center section of the suspension JUST goes in with mm to spare, but it fits and bolts up great.

Jason

got any pics of it mounted in? seems like it's progressing nicely, btw are you a ME student?

rip

[volkdent]

I've never looked at a Ghia, but suspect it will fit no problem. I believe that all the frame mounting points are the same as a type one, then as the wheelwell opens towards the back, Ghias are wider and the pans more square instead of tapered.

No, I'm not a mechanical enginerd, I'm a dentist, a tooth engineer. I had the design done by someone who's built a lot of road race and off-road racing suspensions, so that's where the engineering enters the picture. As well, I have a pretty good sense of force distribution, but I would always overbuild, I don't know the limits on things.

Jason

[volkdent]

Still making small tweaks. Just eyeballed the axle centering on the wheelwell, and it looks like it could be too far back just a smidge. So, the 8mm that the center section was too long will probably come off the front plate and more the whole works forward by 8-10mm. Poor Walt already had the jigs made up for the arms, so he'll have to make those changes and my wallet just got a little bit lighter.

Jason

[volkdent]

Back on the road again. The 10mm is coming off of the front plate so the whole works will be sliding forward 10mm. Walt will start working on it again tomorrow. I'm gone to Canada for the weekend and when I get back he might have something ready for me.

Jason

[volkdent]

Walt says it's done, so it looks like I might be bolting it up this weekend! I can't wait! I'll get some pics.

Jason

[Troy_Audio]

Yeah new pix!!
sweet let us know how ot gose..
peace Troy

[volkdent]

I did promise pics. Whadya think?

It's just tacked up right now, and I have to have a new shock tower made, because for some reason, I have only 30mm of travel up from ride height, but I have 150mm total travel. So the new shock tower will move the shock up.

More here:

www.geocities.com/volkdent/FrontSuspensionAssemblyPartial

[volkdent]

Finally figured out how to get pics on here!

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/214806.jpg

[rustbucket]

Very, Very nice. :eek:

[Troy_Audio]

Sweet!! :haveadrin
You'v really put lots of work into this
Looks sweets as hell Would love to have asetup like that..
Peace Troy
Now To Fixup the rear :righton:

[tom'72]

:agree: :agree: :agree:
looking awesome, keep us updated on when this is for sale

[GS guy]

Looking really good Volkdent! :agree: :agree:
If you don't mind my asking what are you using for the actual moving parts at the A-arm pivot points (or rather what kind of bushing materials)?
I've got a set of Chassisshop A-arms I'm using for my own conversion project and they use a type of plastic bushing material (that rides agains a steel sleeve that the inner bolt tightens up against) that is claimed not to need any lubrication. But these arms are also made for drag racing, not necessarily a whole lot of road mileage. I don't like the slightly loose fit between bushing and steel, I'm brainstorming an alternative.
Jeff

[ellobo]

Lookin Good Jason,
Now setup that R/P and see what you get... :rolleyes:
Also, I don't think you can transfer pictures from a Yahoo photo album...
Pete

[volkdent]

Lookin Good Jason,
Now setup that R/P and see what you get... :rolleyes:
Also, I don't think you can transfer pictures from a Yahoo photo album...
Pete


Thanks Pete, I guess I'm going to have to put pics on the samba or something.

GS Guy, the bushings are from Energy Suspension, they are graphite impregnated polyurethane. They are designed for the eyelets of rear leaf springs, but work perfectly for this application. They actually squeeze the pivot, so their is no sloppiness at all. To the contrary, it is actually stiff to move the arms up and down.

Jason

[volkdent]

Here's some more:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/214807.jpg

[volkdent]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/214808.jpg

[volkdent]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/214809.jpg

[tom'72]

So the big question: how does it drive?

[DORIGTT]

The last caller had it all wrong... :laugh:

The real question isn't how does it drive, it's how long till I get to drive it? :D

Excellent work! I'm sure I speak for all when I say we can't wait for the testing reports. Have you decided what the criteria for the test(s) will be?

Things like the slalom test that the magazines use as well as skidpad test and maybe the figure-8 test that one of the magazines use?

Thanks again in advance for all your hard work and I want to be in line to purchase one of the kits (if that's how you are planning to sell it) for my 1970 Karmann Ghia.

Great job!

[ellobo]

Jason,
I've noticed that you have no caster adjustability built into your first article. Do those ball joint spindles already provide for a fixed angle. If so, At what angle?
I'm only curious because on my offroad setup is adjustable to -10 deg.
Pete

[volkdent]

Hey DorigTT,

I really appreciate all the support you've given me. Sometimes I was sure I was just plain crazy, so at least I know there are a couple other crazy guys out there too!

Pete, the castor is fixed in the design, but it still uses the stock VW eccentrics, so there is some castor adjustability. I'll have to ask the designer what castor angle it was designed at. Castor is really only for high speed stability, so the less the better as long as it feels comfortable.

Jason

[Kwantum]

I just read this whole thread for the first time. :agree: Walt linked it in in the Volksrods.com forums. It looks like it is coming together nicely. Let us know how it works out!

[tom'72]

Let us know how it works out!
and when we can order one ourselfs :)

will it be possible to lower the front with this setup like with the regular adjustable front axle (if it's in this thread somewhere then I'm sorry I missed it)

[volkdent]

and when we can order one ourselfs :)

will it be possible to lower the front with this setup like with the regular adjustable front axle (if it's in this thread somewhere then I'm sorry I missed it)

Tom, this thing will only come initially in slammed mode. All the geometry is setup for a 17" wheel with 40 series tires just tucked under the fender at ride height. The one I've made that you see in the pictures will run 215s on the front. It sticks out about 1" from a stock fender, I wanted a slightly wider track than stock as my back end is going to be very fat. I've ordered new stock width fenders from Creative Car Craft and Bruce?(the owner) is also making me just some outside fender lips from the stock fender mold. I'm going to graft those to the stock fenders to allow the extra 1" to fit under without making the whole fender wider and making the bumpers look funny. It should like a stretched stock fender or maybe like the eyebrowed german look ones. The problem is then I'll have to do the backs eyebrowed as well, and I really prefer the stock fender lines.

We might make a stock height one if the demand is there, but I really can't imagine someone who is comfortable with stock ride height having the need for better cornering, seems kind of backwards, don't ya think!?

Jason

[Troy_Audio]

Sounds like my style...
Slammed on 17's
Willing to go the extra mile for 5miles of turns ..
Peace Troy

[pure55vw]

Looks incredible, Jason! Finally all the hard work is starting to really come together. My project (pictures in the "suspension gallery") has been on the road for about a year now (about 2K miles) and I've been able to solve the early problems and "tweak" a few other things along the way. I'm sure you can't wait to check out your set up on the road, as well. Will you be adding an anti-roll bar?

[volkdent]

Pure55, I'm sure an anti-roll bar will come into play soon enough, but for now it's a matter of making it work properly the way it is then adding as is needed. How did you determine how much anti-roll was needed?

Jason

[pure55vw]

I just measured the torsional stiffness of the front bar off a super (which I was using at the time) and used that as the starting point, since weight distribution in my car is similar. It was also important, in my design, to keep reasonable ride quality. When I changed to the "de-coupled" front bar, it was a matter of finding another one that fit and had roughly the same torsional rate. On the horizon, though, is a switch to an adjustable bar. The one on there now is working well, but I want to explore the effects of a larger bar..

Jay

[volkdent]

Just getting the final upper shock position squared away. It turned out we had less bump travel than we needed, so the shock mount is being redesigned to be a few mm higher and account for a bump stop as well.

Jason

[hugovw1976]

Were you buy the coilovers and how much?

Dou you calculate the spring rate?

[volkdent]

The coilovers are QA1s. I think Carrera bought them out of vice versa. I think the model is Proma Star. I havn't bought the springs yet as I'm waiting to get the car all together so I can weigh it.

Here's my shock. Since I bought mine they've introduced a double-adjustable one too, rebound and compression.

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=egnsearch.asp&N=400026+303797&autoview=sku

For the money it is a very good shock, but if you really want to spend some cash, try Ohlins.

Jason

[Troy_Audio]

Have you used that before..
I checked them out on *KSR* (http://www.geocities.com/~ksracecars/ksrace.html)
The Ohlins are just out of my range right now..
Just dont know many ppl that have heard or used the HAL Shocks..
Peace Troy

[hugovw1976]

Thanks.

Do you know something about aldan coilovers?

[volkdent]

They are an old hot rod mainstream from what I understand. The guy I have building my front end uses them, but again, he's a hot rod guy, I'm more of a road race guy. I've seen one the Aldans, and at least as far as construction was concerned, I wasn't impressed, but I really don't know how they function compared to QA1s. What I do know is that QA1s have adjustment, on mine there is a single adjustment for compression/rebound, and they've recently introduced a separate rebound, separate compression adjustment, I don't know if Aldans have any.

Jason

[Troy_Audio]

i know when i had my suspenion modded on my road bike (01 Yamaha R6)
the difrence was unreal..
im guessing this gose for anything that has suspenion..
cant wait to get my hands in on a suspenion project..
*Peace Troy* (http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2045828/1)

[volkdent]

Still re-doing the shock tower. We are changing the the crossmember as well to get it closer to the shifter tunnel and make more room for a custom gas tank. Plus it will look better too!

Jason

[GS guy]

Hey Jason,
Sounds like your IFS is getting a pretty heavy makeover - before it even hits the road! All in the details isn't it!?
I decided to build my IFS around the Mustang II based components. This is a custom modification to a tube frame chassis fiberglass buggy, but might still be of interest (switching from balljoint front end to IFS).
Couple of interesting aspects - the MII spindles weight less than 1lb more than CB lowered drum brake spindles, yet take much larger bearings (~0.200" larger in diameter) than the VW. I'm using a bolt-on disc brake kit - solid rotor/aluminum hub with 11.75" rotor diameter & 4-piston Wilwood forged DL calipers. :)
Compared to the BJ set-up - I'm loosing 3lb per side in unsprung weight despite the extra beef of the MII hardware, and despite my previous BJ setup using custom adapters and Wilwood 4-piston calipers (already much lighter than std. disc brake spindles and VW iron calipers!). A bonus is I get a lot less scrub radius and rack & pinion steering. On paper the geometry looks pretty good - my next step is to assemble the hardware and take some as-built dimensions and verify locations of the inner pick-up points. I'm designing an adjustable upper A-Arm pick-up location for tweaking caster and swing-arm length - if necessary after it's built.
Jeff

[Panelfantastic]

I am using the QA1s on my bus. Work great so far. Quality seems top notch. The adjustability is very good, a couple clicks on the knob makes a huge difference.

[alt+f4]

I noticed that in the 3d design the main part of the shock body is mounted with the body on the inboard side attched to the chassis part and the rod end attched to the lower A-arm, but in the pictures the shock body side is mounted on the A-arm end and the rod to the chassis side.


I was thing with this change is it because clearence or huh? seems would be beeter witht he shock body being ont he chassis side to remove some unsprung weight.

[volkdent]

QA1's are designed to sit with the body of the shock on the bottom. Splitting hairs on the weight of an aluminum shock is a little silly anyway, as the unsprung weight is only half the weight of the shock, which isn't much. I think just driving this thing is the priority now. If it works good, then I'll look at where the ounces can come off!

Jason

[alt+f4]

Cool...Didnt realize how lught those shocks are.


Cant wait to hear about how this thring drives when it gets to that point!!

[volkdent]

Bob's health is better again, so he's on it. I hope to have the laser cut files over to the machine shop this week.

Jason

[Shadowbug]

any idea of the weight this system could support? I have a split bus with all the suspension bits stripped off it. I was thinking I may try building a locost (http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/index.php) type suspension for it.
Your setup looks cool and definatly might be an option, but I'd like to do a matching IRS as well.

But ideas are only any good if you make them real.

[volkdent]

Hey Shadow,

I really don't know what it will handle weight-wise. I'll have to ask. It was designed for Type 1, so Type II and Type IV variants will be for another rainy day. I suspect it would be stronger than the locost option, as that is an ultra-light weight kind of a car as far as I know.

BTW, your link is no longer working on your signature. Any new pics?

Jason

[Shadowbug]

My site hasn't been updated in some time but I fixed the link.
I'll have to build a section on the bus sometime, but I guess I'll have to make some progress on it first.

[volkdent]

The design is with the laser cutter now. They said 8-30 days, whatever that means! So when that is done, it will get over to Walt's again for final welding. I just got the copy of Hot VWs with Bruce's version on the convertable. Looks pretty cool, I wonder how it drives.

Jason

[MdR]

I've just read this whole thread.
Wow. :eek:
That is seriously impressive.

[lazylongboarder]

Hey Volkdent,
Progress is looking great so far for you. I'm still deciding on whether i should try to adapt the macpherson front setup from the 993, so i'm looking around at other options as well. I am still planning on the multi-link rear setup from the 993, i've seen it fab'd into cages on kit cars so i don't think it'll be to much of a problem (that's what i think now).

I realize that this won't be done for a while, but can you give me a "ball park" figure on what you think the setup will cost.

Thanks again and i'm watching your progress with great interest.

Russ

[volkdent]

I think going with the 993 rear end is a great idea, you'll just be cutting out a lot of material, that's all. It was my first thought as I started my whole process. And your rear end will be amazingly wide. Just check on the track of a stock 993 and then see how wide they make fenders for a bug, because it is an amazing amount wider. It might end up looking really wierd to have a bug with the back end that wide.

I really don't know how much mine will be, if ever it goes on sale. I would imagine around $3500 complete bolt on with shocks, steering rack, and the machine work to the stock steering shaft to connect to the rack. But that price is really based on fabrication and the amount of time and money that went into development. It might be less when I just sit down and look at how much it would cost to make with all the info I know now. Keep in mind that my kit is designed to hang on to as much stock stuff as possible, but if you went with non-stock stuff, it could be had for cheaper. For example, if you just bolted on a steering wheel and shaft setup from a Mk II golf, you could have an adjustable steering wheel as well, but it would look sort of odd in the bugs interior. My decisions were to make the bug look almost stock, but really, REALLY not be!

Jason

[volkdent]

OK, apparently they are actually working on my shock towers now, maybe they will be done this week, but unfortunately Mon. is usually the day I pick stuff up, and its a holiday, so it'll bee next Mon. before I can pick them up. Then hopefully a couple more weeks and the suspension is complete. I'm going to get the front end rolling and temporize the rear suspension so I can get the car down to Walt's and have him fab up the rear suspension strut mounts. They are going to be a little more complicated than I wan't to tackle, being they are going to be removable from the superstructure. He's got all the equipment and the know how to do the job right the first time.
Then I can roll it home and start on the different systems!!!

Jason

[Panelfantastic]

That 993 setup would have to be narrowed or some crazy offset rear wheels used. Either way sounds COOL! If you're fabbing it into a chassis, you just ditch the factory crossmembers and get shorter axles. I think some of those wild offset wheels would be even cooler though, I like a little lip but the flat face is just as appealing, especially because it would disguise all that rubber tucked under the fenders....

[volkdent]

Walt has the front end now. Just those new shock towers cost $330. I really couldn't believe it. Anyway, he should have it welded up in a couple of weeks.

Jason

[volkdent]

Picked up the whole works from Walt today. Nice welding! The new shock towers are too tall it seems, and I'm just completely done with the idea of more mods for now, so I may just be getting some new QA1's that are longer and are double adjustable. I gave everything a painjob with hammertone silver. I didn't spend much time on prep, as this whole thing will be sandblasted and powder coated, but at least it will look good and keep the rusting down. I gave the area around the frame head a spray of undercoating. Tomorrow I'll bolt things up and maybe snap some pics.

Jason

[DORIGTT]

Quit teasing us and drive the damned thing! This is worse than going to one of 'those bars'! Yes, I'm worked up about it :D

[volkdent]

Got her bolted on today. The paint stayed on OK except for a couple spots to touch up. The same can not be said of the undercoating I sprayed on as well. It must be some cheap stuff, because the stuff I've used before has been pretty heavy duty. Getting this thing on and off of a car is like doing one of those wire puzzles from the 80's. So don't get to worked up, as a "for sale" version would need to be modified enough to make it easier to get on and off. Anyway, I'll be ordering up the new shocks tomorrow. Oh, I bolted up one of the wheels. I can't remember the offset, but the tire is 205/40/17. I had to modify the edge of the 2" wider fenders to clear it, so that gives you an idea of how much wider of a track I built into this suspension, again, something that most people probably would want near stock. I'll hopefully get the rear end temporarily bolted up tomorrow to get the car over to Walts.

Jason

[Panelfantastic]

TPIWWP! :D


Jeff-

[volkdent]

TPIWWP! :D


Jeff-


I have no idea what that means!!! Apparently firemen spend a little time online at the firehouse!

Jason

[Panelfantastic]

Something I picked up from those smartasses over at the Audiworld forums....
This Post Is Worthless Without Pics.

[volkdent]

Man, some people on here are SO demanding! ;) Here you go, just so its worth while to look at this thread!

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230073.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230074.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230072.jpg

[volkdent]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230083.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230076.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230080.jpg

Ride Height

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230079.jpg

Full Bump, looks kinda mean I think!

[volkdent]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230084.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230085.jpg

Note cutout for tie rod. It may have to be enlarged slightly, but this is the only major modification to the body, one of my primary goals in this endeavor

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230086.jpg

Fills in the 2" wider fenders quite fully. I may still need to widen the top of the fender to allow decent steering in bump. I've already completely removed the stock-style lip on the edge of the fender, but it still binds when turning sharply in a bump position. Clears with room to spare currently at ride height.

[volkdent]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230088.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/230089.jpg

[Panelfantastic]

Sweet!
Folks gonna be driving you crazy wanting this! But the part where it aint cheap will thin out the tire kickers. I would love to see this under my bus! I just haven't figured out how to reverse the rack and pinion.


Jeff-

[volkdent]

I'm thinking you could do a chain drive maybe.....? :laugh:

Jason

[Troy_Audio]

Have'nt stopped in for a long time..
Your progress is lookin good..
how is testing?
Overall MAD PROPS.. Great Work
Troy

[Panelfantastic]

I'm thinking you could do a chain drive maybe.....? :laugh:

Jason

YEAH! Then with different sprockets I could get the ratio down to one turn, lock to lock. I LIKE IT! Just like a go cart! :D

[ellobo]

Really looks awsome Jason,
I think you got the geometry right. A suggestion for steering might be to consider a draglink setup. So you could use either a stock steering box or a forward steer unit. I guess the only problem with my suggestion would be building your own spindles. More money, Oh well :rolleyes: that's wheels...
Good job...
Pete

[volkdent]

Hey Pete,

If you take a look, you'll see the rack is already in place. The whole suspension was designed around it. All that is left is to get another tie rod, thread both of them, and shorten them and then hook up the steering wheel. Thanks for the props!

Jason

[alt+f4]

OMG Dude!!! I need to change my pants! So awsome to see this project go from dream to reality!!!!


You got some talent and vision man!! Keep it up!

[volkdent]

Double Adjustable QA1s are in.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/232501.jpg

[Dasdubber]

Mate this is awe-inspiring stuff. I congratulate you for your vision, and committment to following the project through the planning, design, fabrication and now to the installation (then to sorting out the bugs/problems which hopefully will only be minor). Yes I am sure many people will be asking you to develop kits, but I can appreciate the time, money, heartache involved in such a conversion.

Well done! :agree:
Alan

[volkdent]

Thanks mate, I just hope this thing works as good as it looks. I'll be none too thrilled if it handles like $hit after all the work and money I've put into it. I'm quite confident though that it will be lighter and handle much better than a beam setup. I'm especially hoping that I can head into a fast tight corner and not FEEL like the car is wanting to keep going straight, a problem that I've noticed with lowered Type Is. Anyone else noticed the difference in how a bug handles compared to a modern car? Can you pinpoint the sensation you feel as a driver?

Jason

[volkdent]

New shocks are on and the travel is PERFECT! The tire just clears turned when on the bump stops, and the droop is great, if not maybe a little too much. We'll have to see.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/233549.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/233550.jpg

[Panelfantastic]

Did you get mine packaged up and ready to ship yet?

[DORIGTT]

Hey Jeff! Piss-off :D You've got a Bus! My Ghia needs it WAAYY before you do.

Damn! You people are always being greedy! Don't you know that Jason and I are family and I get first dibbs? :agree:

Just kidding!

Looking good Jason..

My address in case you deleted me from your rolodex after that last food fight at the family bon-fire last fall is XXXXX Blah Blah Lane, Somewhere, Michigan 4XXXX.

The truck drivers, postal workers and UPS drivers already know the drill. Mail....mailbox. car, motorcycle, and tractor parts (my other wierd fetish) behind the house.

Thanks Cuz
:laugh:

[GS guy]

Hey Jason,
Do the shocks themselves provide the travel limits, or do you have other limits built into the system? Haven't seen any limiting straps or anything, I presume the upper stops are limit bumpers on the shock shafts?
Looks real nice guy - can't wait to hear how it rides and handles!
I'll be working on my M-II based system over the Winter, so always interested in hearing about your trail blazing!
Cheers,
Jeff

[volkdent]

I lean towards Kubotas myself.... I'm soooo glad there are at least a couple of other guys as mad as me! I'm waiting on a couple of suppliers to find me a tie rod assembly, I think from Lemforder. I have one, but I need another. The cheaper ones have knurled threads, the threads are actually pressed from the tie rod, so the rod is smaller than the threads, but the one I need has cut threads, so the tie rod is actually larger than the threads. I can just cut and weld/splice the others, but being as crazy as me, you'll understand why I want the OEM look as opposed to the hack job look.

Once I get the other tie rod and shorten them, the suspension is complete.

Jeff, the picture with the wheel hanging in the air is full droop. If the springs are soft enough, they will be able to keep themselves from clattering around at full droop. If they get more stiff, I'll have to use a helper spring to keep things tight, or use a limiting strap to keep the wheel from travelling down too far. On the bump side, the bump stops touch just as the tire nears the fender while turned. I will get rub right now on a HARD corner bump, but I suspect it won't happen that often.

Jason

[lazylongboarder]

wow kabotas are interesting...uhhh do you have a dirt moving fetish, or are you possibly a contractor? Just kidding.

I really want to hear about how this setup works. I just bought a new audi quattro that set the project back a bit, I wouldn't have gotten it, except it snows a lot in utah, and all wheel drive is very important and subaru's aren't german. It's funny i'm using that as an excuse when i have a twin turbo subaru motor waiting for a home in the back of my dub

[volkdent]

I can't find a freekin' Lemforder tie rod assembly ANYWHERE!!!! So it looks like I might have to make a rabbit tie rod work, or I'm going to have to do some cutting and welding on the Mk II tie rods. Not what I wanted, but you gotta make it work somehow.

Incidently, if ANYONE has a single new Lemforder non-powered Mk II tie rod assembly just kicking around in their garage, give me a shout.

Walt said he's going to be able to start working on the rear strut mounts within a couple of weeks, so I'm trying desperately to get the steering squared away before he takes it.

Jason

[volkdent]

Wow, what a day! First I ran around looking at tie rod options. After the purchase of 3 of them, I finally found that while freaking expensive(read Made in USA), Moog's RABBIT tie rod worked PERFECTLY! I now have a bunch of Golf II tie rods in case anyone needs em. I cut a few more threads on the rods, and then cut off about 2cm, and they worked perfectly. Besides steering shaft, the front end is done.

Now on the back, though temporary, I made some upper strut mounts and cut the strut holes for the drivers side, leaving me with....

A ROLLER!!!! That is what hot rodders call a rolling chassis. I bolted up the wheels, adjusted the ride height, and OMG, IT ALL WORKS!!!!! I had eyeballed a lot of what I did on the rear end, so to have it all work out, at least for now, is such a big relief. I put the rear fenders on just to check, and again, the width is just perfect.

So now I can roll my car around at least, and maybe move it to my residence instead of being over at my rental. Next weekend I should be able to roll it onto a trailer and over to Walt's.

I worked till 10 tonight, and never thought I'd get as far as I did, so expect pics tomorrow.

Jason

[Panelfantastic]

Is it tomorrow yet?? :D


Jeff-

[volkdent]

I've posted in 180hp 1.8t in Bug (http://www.germanlook.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=43890#post43890) because it has more to do with the rear end. I'll get some better pics of the front end when I get a chance. Most of the time today was spent on getting the garage cleaned up and re-organized after the car was rolled out.

Jason

[KAFUR1]

[QUOTE=Panelfantastic]Did you get mine packaged up and ready to ship yet?[/Q i want one too

[volkdent]

Let's make sure it works well first before we all get too excited!!!

Jason

[thelazerviking]

i really can't wait to see how this thing rides and the adjustability on it and all.

it looks so awesome

[lazylongboarder]

I have no more patience... :mad:

[volkdent]

I have no more patience... :mad:

That's funny. And your doing what to your car.....?

[volkdent]

Here's the steering shaft. The stock outer housing has been shortened and will need to be shortened some more, and the main steering shaft has been shortened as well. It will have the intermediate piece slipped inside it and welded. Residing inside the housing is a machined Delron(if I remember correctly) bushing that limits lateral movement of the steering shaft. A new bushing will be machined and pressed into the end of the housing to rub up against the Ujoint to limit in/out play of the steering wheel. Don't tell anyone, but the Ujoint is AMERICAN!!! Its a Flaming River hot rod one, but I could only find a guy that made standard splines on shafts, no metric. Ever try to find someone that makes splines? If you want to spend LOTs of time, give it a try someday.

Jason

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/237716.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/237717.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/237718.jpg

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/237719.jpg

[lazylongboarder]

That's funny. And your doing what to your car.....?

Ya you got me...

by the way, i'm ordering the 993 rear suspension assembly on Mon. the 28th and i got my ej20tt a month ago. The biggest thing i'm saving up for so i can really start fabbing up some shizzle is the 6 speed g50. Too bad its $3500 then 1100 for a lsd, with 500 hp and 400 lb/ft of torque, i don't want to worry about 1 wheel burnouts.

Good luck with your project, its looking great!

[volkdent]

The steering is now complete. I'll get pictures soon. I had to enlarge the hole for the steering shaft at the front bulkhead by about double towards the midline to accomodate the steering shaft angle dictated by the rack location.

A friend of mine machined a spacer for the end of the steering column to resist in/out sliding of the steering shaft. It inserts into the end of the steering column and rides on the edge of the Flaming River U-joint.

It should work out really well, but it uses the stock 1960 steering wheel. It's very "sleeper" but I'm afraid I'm going to have to do it all over again with something I can use the Porsche 996 Tiptronic steering wheel on.

Jason

[Panelfantastic]

Tiptronic? You don't have an auto, do you? Just want the buttons for something else? :D

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL267/1824562/5931489/122485154.jpg

[volkdent]

I figured I could use one of them for the volume control, and the other to shoot laserbeams!!! Seriously though, 2 possiblities, full track/volume control, or they have this sequential shifter that comes out of racing that could be used to shift. I'm thinking those buttons will be used for volume control for a LONG time before that tranny will get into this car though!

Jason

[Panelfantastic]

Sequential... yummmm :D !


Jeff-

[MdR]

UK Interest (http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?p=2058106&posted=1#post2058106)

[darren]

The biggest thing i'm saving up for so i can really start fabbing up some shizzle is the 6 speed g50. Too bad its $3500 then 1100 for a lsd, with 500 hp and 400 lb/ft of torque, i don't want to worry about 1 wheel burnouts.


I watched one of these go on Ebay uk last month for £600! Factory fitted LSD, less than 5K miles. :eek:
I knew I should have bid on it :sleep:

[lazylongboarder]

I watched one of these go on Ebay uk last month for £600! Factory fitted LSD, less than 5K miles. :eek:
I knew I should have bid on it :sleep:

OK, IF ANYONE FINDS A DEAL LIKE THIS LET ME KNOW I'LL GIVE YOU MY CELL # SO I CAN FIGURE THIS OUT ASAP! come on. thats soooo cheap for a g50, i'd've definately gone for that and eaten the shipping. Sorry volkdent for killing your thread. It seems that this is the most popular thread and everyone checks here the most...including me.

Rock and roll, the rear suspension is here, so is my motor (to bad i'm only gonna use the heads off of it), and i'm still looking for a good deal on a g50.

[darren]

I should add it was a '95 year box and the porsche forums i looked up suggested avoiding these early year boxes.....

[Panelfantastic]

Darren, sweet looking panel in your avatar.

LLB, be careful about getting too new of a box. Make sure you can get it adapted over. "I think" the watercooled 911s have a completely different bellhousing. They are not gonna be any stronger than the older boxes but might create unessecary costs that you could use elsewhere.


Jeff-

[ricola]

I watched one of these go on Ebay uk last month for £600! Factory fitted LSD, less than 5K miles. :eek:
I knew I should have bid on it :sleep:

Wasn't that a 4WD one? If so, they are a lot longer and need adapting for 2WD use...

[lazylongboarder]

Darren, sweet looking panel in your avatar.

LLB, be careful about getting too new of a box. Make sure you can get it adapted over. "I think" the watercooled 911s have a completely different bellhousing. They are not gonna be any stronger than the older boxes but might create unessecary costs that you could use elsewhere.


Jeff-

Good thing for me, the water-cooled 911's didn't start till the 996 in 99', so consiquently all of the tranny's from 95' to 98' are all identical apart from the c4 boxes, they have a 9.31 rp, which handles 800 lb ft of torque in a 3100 lb car.

Russell

[Panelfantastic]

Wasn't sure when the waterpumpers started, don't they all have basically the same bolt pattern until then??


Jeff-

[volkdent]

Not to break up the tranny chat or anything :confused: but I did get the front end completely finished today, just alignment and shock/spring changes to be done. The steering shaft went just fine last night, that is until I got the U-joints installed.

I had a wump, wump, wump as I turned the wheel. I was pissed, because none of the angles are adjustable, they are all built in. My bug lives over at one of my rental houses, and the guy that lives there use to restore Mustangs. He's out there with me as the 3rd arm, and when this happens he suggests the U-joints have to be offset, that is, the center section can't look like a flat H, it one of the ends has to be turned 90 degrees to the other.

It was getting late and I was frustrated, so I left it till today. He lent me his 3rd arm again, and I dismantled it and re-assembled it 90 degrees to the other U-joint.

PRESTO FIXO! Its works like a champ! I'll get some pics tomorrow, I left my camera home today.

Jason

PS. I started this thread a while ago for obvious reasons:

LazyLongboarder's Rear End (http://www.germanlook.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=6525)

[Panelfantastic]

Sorry we got off track :o .


I completely missed the obvious reason for the Porsche rearend topic?? other than to get Russell beat up in a parking lot :laugh: !


Jeff-

[volkdent]

I promised pics, and here they are:

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/247639.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/247641.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/247644.jpg

It's pretty hard to see, but there is a black machined bushing between the U joint and the steering column. A friend of mine, Mike Humphreys, did the machining of this part, as well as the internal pushing that keeps the steering shaft centered in the steering column.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/247647.jpg

This will be the last I post on this topic for awhile, the next will be tuning it with the correct springs and shock adjustment, and the addition of a sway bar, but I'll get the whole thing running before I do that, so it may be awhile.

Jason-whew!

[volkdent]

Without too much planning, I ended up in Fresno this weekend after a couple days spent at Laguna Seca with the Audi Club. It also just so happens that Bruce and his Eyeball Engineering is also located in Fresno, so I got a chance to snap some pics of one of Bruce's suspensions on a show car before it went to uphostery(sp?). This will be a very nice car, unfortuneatly for GL fans, it will be Cal Look/Hot Rod.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/255627.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/255637.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/255643.jpg

[volkdent]

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/255647.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/255649.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/255652.jpg

[volkdent]

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/255655.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/255658.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/255661.jpg

I really like these fender "bolts"!

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/255664.jpg

Jason

[DORIGTT]

What the $#@% are they waiting for to produce this!?!

Is this potentially what us beam front suspension people dreamt of?

Get on the horn! Get those folks to make it for us.

All those in favor?

[Panelfantastic]

The lower A-arm pivots look like a tie rod end? The front one is on one axis and the rear one is on another?
Great detail, excellent pics! They should sell these.


Jeff-

[lazylongboarder]

All in favor..."I"

Where do i send the check? Seriously...